Group of POWs? Unidentified Photo

[KivetonLads]

I would be grateful if members could advise whether this is likely to be a group of POWs. The descendants of one of the men pictured believes it to be the case but I would like confirmation.

Similarly, it would be very useful if anyone can help identify the cap badges.

Many thanks,

John

[Desmond7]

First reaction ... Could be entirely wrong. Loads of different units and one diff. nationality but this does not say POW to me. Different rank structures also. Looks like the HQ Coy with liaison man?

Des

KRRC various LI ?? Cap badge wise ...

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Chap @ front left facing you North Staffordshire Rgt?

Back Row 2nd in, RH side KOYLI{Bugle}

A couple of Yorks & Lancs? Possibly,

Behind the Frenchman,[next to the Officer? with "Spit le Chien"];could be DoW's West Riding Regt.on his other side could be Queen's Regt {West Surrey R} or East Kent R{Buffs}

one or two with Medal Ribbons "Up" & wound stripes

They do look rather too smart & well fed for PoWs,also their age suggests somewhere behind the lines???

A great photograph though.

The Officer?[2nd in front row LH side} has the look of one of our Belgian Pal Members Briskof is that you my friend??

[Graham Stewart]

Certainly don't look like POW's with an officer and French Sgt present. Officers were split from the men after capture. Possibly a Town Major & his Staff?

Graham.

[Liam]

They also look a bit old to be front line fighting men plus the chap in the front row with the dog looks a little bit unfit.

Sorry for stating the obvious

Liam

[Doug Johnson]

Could be anything including PoWs. Although officers and ORs were usually sent to different camps there is an instance at Gustrow where Lt Adams spent his time there rather than go to an officer's camp. Also officers had ORs with them as servants. Age is also not a good indication. Apart from the fact that the one on the right facing, middle row looks quite young, a PoW at Gustrow was around 50 when he died in 1918. Medal ribbons were available to PoWs including the 1914 star. Against them being PoWs is the lack of any number patches, arm or leg bands but again that is not a positive indication as not all camps used them. There is still an order of rank in the photograph as the privates are all standing at the back, further indication that they may not be PoWs as rank seems to have been of little consideration amongst PoWs. Uniforms are also strangely uniform even if a little ill fitting, not at all like a PoW camp where such mixtures of units usually produce an equal mixture of uniform types. Strange also that the only three Brit OR left sleeves that can be seen all have wound stripes, another reason for believing that these are not PoWs but men who are now unfit for service in the front line.

If there is a descendant then presumably there is a name which might help. Also what is on the back of the picture? unless it is completely blank then the style of the back may help.

Doug

[Ian Riley]

Certainly don't look like POW's with an officer and French Sgt present. Officers were split from the men after capture. Possibly a Town Major & his Staff?

Graham.

Town Major was my first thought but somewhere in the back of my mind is the thought that Town Majors wore an armband of some sort which, if this were the 'official' photo, might be expected to be in evidence.

Here's a long shot: postwar grave registration team? There's just something about the look of sad maturity of the soldiers (and I shouldn't imagine it was a job for young soldiers) and the mud on their boots.

The number of dogs certainly points to some degree of settled existence. It seems to have gone a bit beyond the scale of the company commander's labrador which always seemed to appear on range days in the 1970's

Just ignore me; it's late and I know very little about graves registration and battlefield clearance.

Ian

[PBI]

Most photos that i have of POWS show that the Men dressed in odds and ends or whatever came to hand after their Uniforms wore out or became too infested to wear any longer.

[Doug Johnson]

Friedhelm's info on this thread

confirms that a number of mens camps had British officers in residence. (but not at Gustrow as the only officer there left for Holland early in 1918)

Doug

[squirrel]

I wonder if it is a course of some sort and the Officer and the two Sergeants are instructors although the latter have no "badges" to show this. All the "privates" appear to be infantry though which might point to something but I know not what.

[Aaron Pegram]

Nope. POW in Germany were issued with special uniforms in dark navy. Unless this is very early after capture, im unconvinced. Thats not to say the gentleman known by your donor wasn't a POW later on.

A.

[Doug Johnson]

Nope. POW in Germany were issued with special uniforms in dark navy.

Although such uniforms were issued they were not the only type. The following photograph only has one clue as to them being PoW's and that is the guy in the dark uniform at the back who has an arm band (to the left of my grandfather).

All uniforms neat and tidy, various regiments represented (though 8 are 1/14th London Regiment) and therefore not unlike the other picture in content. If the dogs are a problem then I can post one with a pet cat in it.

I would still like to see the back of the picture which might provide the vital clue.

Doug

PS has anyone ever seen a PoW photographed with wound stripes? Although medal ribbons etc were issued I am not aware of having seen any wound stripes though many PoWs were wounded. Most wounds would however not be on the army records. I must have a look through all my pictures.

[punjab612]

Nope. POW in Germany were issued with special uniforms in dark navy.

A.

An example of dark blue uniforms. my Gt Uncle Albert William Harvey 2nd Bn Wiltshire Reg't seated on right in 1918 at Chemnitz POW camp.

Any recognition of others or observations would be welcome.

Peter

[Doug Johnson]

A look through my collection has revealed a clear view of a PoW with a wound stripe.

Paul, nice picture. PoW stripes down trousers, armbands, numbers on left breast and the triangle I have only seen on Chemnitz photographs, not much doubt regarding PoW status here.

Doug

[owilki1984]

All uniforms neat and tidy, various regiments represented (though 8 are 1/14th London Regiment) and therefore not unlike the other picture in content. If the dogs are a problem then I can post one with a pet cat in it.

Hi Doug,

These uniforms are very neat and tidy, and its a cracking picture. I am right in thinking that such uniforms would have been sent to the individuals by their regimental organizations?

Surley these guys could not have been captured in the uniforms they are pictured as they are not grubby enough.

Also would the Red Cross mess about finding the right uniform for the right man, or would they just send a standard uniform - i.ei the Navy Blue one?

Regards

Oli

PS Did you have a look at the article I sent you? Any good?

[Doug Johnson]

Oli,

My guess for the date of my photograph would be some time in 1916. Which for the 1/14th London guys would be their second year of captivity. If you look at the photograph of the Red Cross parcel that I posted you will see that it is sent by the London Scottish Old Comrades Association but still carries a large (but faded) red cross on the label. The original contents I think consisted of a toothbrush, flannels and towels (pretty small towels however) Although all parcels are referred to as Red Cross parcels I am not sure as to whether they actually sent any on their own behalf. My feeling is that they mainly acted as agents for others. All indications are that regiments, rather than regimental associations or PoW committees, sent uniforms to their own troops. PoWs were still counted as being part of the regiment and when the territorials were renumbered, all these 1/14th London guys were renumbered with the rest of the regiment in order of their original numbers (a bit closer together however to acount for those who did not make it. For some strange reason though even some of the dead were renumbered as my great uncle was)

Where accounts mention a prisoners uniform on arrival at a camp they usually refer to them as being non existant. The first few weeks after capture could be a bit difficult. With no food parcels and no money prisoners would be entirely dependent on the German food supplies which were notorious throughout the war for their inadequacy and inedibility. For many troops greatcoats were taken by their captors, boots would be stolen, especially from the wounded and any other clothing they had would be sold for food. British tunics were especially prized by other nationalities. For those working behind the lines they received no change of clothing until they went to a camp. To give some idea of the state of clothing, when RAMC officers first went to Gustrow early in 1915 they were appalled by the filthy condition of the troops who had not been able to wash since the day they were captured, which for some was months! It was not until feb 1915 that the camp was adequately complete for the guys to move into. In addition the accommodation was in large tents sleeping on straw (no mattresses) on the bare earth which at the entrance to the tents was a morass. There is no indication of when these troops received their first Red Cross parcels but the first letters were not received before November 1914.

C C Benson was offered 250 marks for his boots on the black market. Considering that a farm labourer PoW was paid 25pf per day that was a considerable sum.

If a PoW arived at a camp such as Gustrow then most had some form of help committee that would provide clothing and food until their own parcels arrived. Note that badges etc would not necessarily be from their own regiment. Also PoW's are noted for borrowing clothing and being photographed in it.

This photograph has no obvious clues that they are PoW's. No dark blue here (apart from the two RNAS guys) Officer in the front and a complete mixture of units. The place however is Gustrow in 1917.

Doug

[owilki1984]

Doug,

Many thanks. A lot of cracking info once again. I am sure you are right that the Red Cross were the agents for a much wider effort.

I think Robert Jackson in his book refers to the ICRC as the peak of a hugh pyramid of effort.

Also I have info that allowed the men to make direct appeals for certain items of clothes through the YMCA, or even direct from the American Ambassador. These requests were forwarded to London.

I was just unsure of what actual clothes they would have got. You post is very interesting and I did not know that men might end up in uniforms badged with different regiments than their 'own'.

Very Interesting

Thanks

Regards

Oli