Glengarry WW1, WW2 and later

[BatterySergeantMajor]

What is the difference between a WW1 and a WW2 Glengarry?

From which moment the red and white colours were introduced and why was this?

Erwin

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

From Barthorp:

From 1851 NCOs and men of kilted regiments wore the dark blue 'Glengarry' bonnet as a forage cap, with a diced band (except for the 79th). This order was ignored by the 42nd and did not apply to the non-kilted 71st, 72nd and 74th, all of whom retained Kilmarnocks.

In 1851 these were the following:

The 79th is the: 79th Regiment of Foot (Cameron Highlanders) [become the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders]

The 42nd is the: 42nd (Royal Highland) Regiment of Foot [become the 1st Bn Black Watch]

The 71st is the: 71st (Highland) Regiment of Foot (Light Infantry) [become the 1st Bn HLI]

The 72nd is the: 72nd (or Duke of Albany's Own Highlanders) Regiment of Foot [become the 1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders]

The 74th is the:74th (Highland) Regiment of Foot [become the 2nd Bn HLI]

To do with the dicing, this is something that developed from the original blue highland bonnet worn by the 42nd. After 1768 the newly formed highland regiments started to overly ornate a basic bonnet with feathers, dicing and even bearskin etc.

I cannot take the dicing much further than this as it is a knowledge gap. However, the dicing is particular to some units e.g. the RSF dicing is different to the Argyll pattern etc. and units such the 71st, 72nd, and 74th still maintained their dicing on their shakos/kilmarnock albeit losing their kilts.

Hope this is a bit of a help

Aye

Tom McC

PS - You need someone like Joe Sweeney to explain the difference between a WWI bonnet and a WWII bonnet. They all look basically similar to me.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Thanks Tom

Erwin

[Joe Sweeney]

Erwin,

A rough way to tell is the trim/sweatband.

Up until 1914 Glengarries were made with black calfskin trim.

In 1914 (June and July) all patterns were changed to "brown leather calfskin, chromed tanned"---These are actually far rarer than the Black Calfskin, I think the date of approval and the start of war has something to do with the rarity.

However, to add complication in late Nov 1914 three universal patterns were introduced as a simplification. They had faux silk Trim. These were blue with blue tuft, the blue with scarlet tuft, and the plain green. These were supposed to replace all diced varieties but were never really popular. These are actually fairly common. They are really tough to tell without the labels from more modern ones.

All Glengarries were changed to the silk trim sometime in the 1920/30's--somewhere I have the extact date info.

Joe Sweeney

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Joe

Thanks, this is very much to the point. What is the reason the some glengarry's have a red/white pattern and some not. When came these colour schemes in existence?

Erwin

[Joe Sweeney]

Erwin,

I'm actually not sure of the development of the dicing and why the dicing differed from most regimernts. This goes way back.

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

Reference the dicing on bonnets/caps:

There may be a description of this in I think in Col David Stewart of Garth's book 'History of the Highlands/Highlanders' [paraphrasing]. The dicing was described as the Cheque Fez (probably French due to the Auld Alliance) and the colours represented chivalrous qualities in heraldry.

If it reads any different, then at least I made someone curious enough to read it

I do not have a copy of Stewart of Garth's book, but hopefully someone may have access to this and can confirm the details in this book.

Aye

Tom McC

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Thanks, all your help is much appreciated.

Erwin

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Erwin,

From Barthorp:

From 1851 NCOs and men of kilted regiments wore the dark blue 'Glengarry' bonnet as a forage cap, with a diced band (except for the 79th). This order was ignored by the 42nd and did not apply to the non-kilted 71st, 72nd and 74th, all of whom retained Kilmarnocks.

Tom (or others)

Did the Cameron Highlanders wear the Glengarry without diced band till they were disbanded/ amalgated? I remember having seen photo's of red/white diced glengarry's with a Cameron badge, but probably the man who wore it did not know the correct history himself?

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

The Cameron Highlanders wore a Glengarry that was pretty similar in appearance to the Black Watch one:

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/sep2005.html

Hope this helps,

Aye

Tom McC

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Thanks, this helps a lot. So this photo which I found on an Italian site is the wrong glengarry?

Erwin

[Tom A McCluskey]

Erwin,

Here is a bit more on the dicing on the cap; this is from a modern version of Stewart of Garth's History of the Highlanders. It refers to the 43rd Foot - 42nd after re-numbering, which is the Black Watch:

The independent companies continued to exist as such until the year 1739, when government resolved to raise four additional companies, and to form the whole into a regiment of the line. For this purpose, letters of service, dated 25th October 1739, were addressed to the Earl of Crawford and Lindsay, who was appointed to the command of the regiment about to be formed, which was to consist of 1000 men. Although the commissions were dated as above, the regime was not embodied till the month of May 1740, when it assembled on a field between Taybridge and Aberfeldy, in the county of Perth, under the number of the 43d regiment, although they still retained the country name of the Black Watch. "The uniform was a scarlet jacket and waistcoat, with buff facings and white lace, - tartan plaid of twelve yards plaited round the middle of the body, the upper part being fixed on the left shoulder ready to be thrown loose, and wrapped over both shoulders and firelock in weather. At night the plaid served the purpose of a blanket, and was a sufficient covering for the Highlander. These were called belted plaids from being kept tight to the body by a belt, and were worn on guards, reviews, and on all occasions when the men were in full dress. On this belt hung the pistols and dirk when worn. In the barracks, and when not on duty, the little kilt or philibeg was worn, a blue bonnet with a border of white, red and green, arranged in small squares to resemble, as is said, the fess cheque in the arms of the different branches of the Stewart family, and a tuft of feathers, or sometimes, from economy or necessity, a small piece of black bearskin. The arms were a musket, a bayonet, and a large basket-hilted broadsword. These were furnished by government. Such of the men as chose to supply themselves with pistols and dirks were allowed to carry them, and some had targets after the fashion of their country. The sword-belt was of black leather, and the cartouch-box was carried in front, supported by a narrow belt round the middle."

There are also articles referring to this going back in the Stewart family, and even to Breton in France. In Heraldry a Fess is a band going straight across the shield, the Chequy is the chequered effect.

Here is a link to a site explaining about this:

http://www.baronage.co.uk/2003b/stewart8.html

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Hi Tom

Thanks again. This is the first acceptable explanation I ever got on this subject

Erwin