How much leave?

[staffsreg]

How much leave could Tommy expect while on active service?

How often would he be allowed home?

Was it dependent on service length etc.,

And also if he lived in a hard to get to spot, lets say Ireland or The Scottish Highlands, could he expect a little longer to get to and from?

Sorry so many questions, but it's something i hadn't given a second thought to until recently!

Cheers my friends,

Ivan

[PBI]

RE Travel Times for Soldiers,the travel time is lumped in with the Leave,so some men must have lost a good portion of their leave through Travel time.I have recorded accounts of many of the common Soldiery having just one leave in 3 Years,on the other Hand the Officers seem to have done fairly well on the Leave entitlement Front,no doubt this would give the PBI a good source for a healthy gripe..deservedly so in my opinion.

[staffsreg]

thanks PBI..bloody unfair..me thinks.

so there was no hard and fast rule then, nothing in Kings Regs about leave?

Ivan

[Desmond7]

Soldiers in Ireland definitely allowed extra days for travel.

Interestingly, I see a lot of Canadians and Australians visiting their families in Ireland while on leave.

[Chris Henschke]

"travel time was lumped in with the leave"

I know that as early as September 1916, the period of leave granted was increased to “not exceed 10 days from date of leaving port of departure, until leave thereto.”

This is from S.S. 523 ‘Regulations regarding Leave.’, dated 3rd August 1917;

"Leave to the United Kingdom.

Period.

1. Ordinary leave will be granted to Officers and men for periods of ten days via Boulogne or Calais, and 11 days via Havre. For instance, if a man proceeds on leave on November 15th via Boulogne or Calais, his leave terminates on November 25th ; if via Havre, his leave terminates on November 26th."

In November, 1916 an allowance was made for those proceeding to Orkneys – Hebrides, Isle of Man, and Channel Islands to whom 12 days leave was granted.

Chris Henschke

[staffsreg]

thanks Chris, Des.

how often though was this 10/12day leave granted...per year?.

ivan

[Chris Henschke]

The entitlement of leave was not individualized as personal annual leave as we think of it today. An allotment of leave (to the United Kigdom, i.e., 'Blighty Leave')was granted to units at certain periods and leave would be ‘granted to reliable men of good character, preference being given to those who have had the longest service in the field’.

Leave up to eight days granted by commanders did not affect leave to the United Kingdom and in additional to that leave, officers and men would also be eligible for leave to the United Kingdom.

GRO 2787, dated 10 November, 1917 stated;

"Leave granted in excess of 8 days will count as leave to the United Kingdom, and an officer or soldier on being granted such leave will automatically be placed at the bottom of the leave roster, the leave in the case of "other ranks" being entered in A.B. 64."

Having said that, the allocation would roughly be enough for men to get 10 days United Kingdom leave every 12 - 18 months of service.

Chris Henschke

[ackimzey]

Hi, Ivan, my great uncle's diary contains entries about his leave. He was a U.S. Army doctor attacted to the BEF for his entire service (Grover Carter, see my avitar). He had been serving for a little over a year at the time he receive leave. I've included the passages below in case you might like to read them.

Ann

Sept. 9, 1918 – One year ago today left home for Washington. Wish I were in Old Memphis today but not to leave it. Rained in early morning & very cold. The Old Hun dropped a shell about 50 yds. away from me as I went to W.L.’s.

Sept 10, 1918 – Rained & very cold all day. Leave to Eng. refused. So applied for Paris leave.

Sept. 20, 1918 – Have had notification of my leave to Paris soon. Nice day & feeling better

Sept. 26, 1918 – Up at 5 a.m. Had cup of tea, went to Bapaume & then to Albert on lorrie. Caught another for Amiens. Arrived 11 a.m. Had two lunches as was first since noon of 25th. Went thru cathedral. Wonderful structure. Left 4:50 p.m. for Paris, arrived 10 p.m. Spent night at Hotel d’Ostend. Good sleep.

Sept. 27, 1918 – Went out to 57B Hospt. J.P. at Juilly sick. Saw Bill Clory, Abernathy & some nurses from home. Found J.P. up. Had influenza. Damn glad to see home folks.

Sept 28, 1918 – Stayed about Hospt. All day. J.P. feeling fine. Going to Paris in a.m. Hospt. in old school building where Napoleon went to school.

Sept. 29, 1918 – Came to Paris at noon. Strolled thru Luxembourg Gardens in p.m. Bed and mattress to sleep on, oh boy!

Sept. 30, 1918 – Went to Tuileries gardens, Arch of Triumph, Napoleon’s tomb, Champs l’Elysea, grand & petite palaces.

Oct. 1, 1918 – To Marigny Theater (American) J.P., Misses Suddath, [blank space] & myself. Damn rotten. Sight seeing during day.

Oct. 2, 1918 – Up town in a.m. To Les Invalides in p.m. with a Miss Cook of Ill. Pretty cold.

Oct. 3, 1918 – Went out to Palais Versailles in p.m. Out at night. Bon night at Morging Hotel.

Oct. 4, 1918 – Visited some of important places of Paris. To picture show at night with Miss Cook.

Oct. 5, 1918 – Cabled home. Packed for home. Left at 10:15 p.m. Met a Capt. Taylor of 17th Div., also two Red Cross nurses. Good time to Abbeville.

Oct. 6, 1918 – Got off at Abbeville at 5:30 a.m. Had breakfast at Officer’s Club. Caught train at 10:35 a.m. for Etaples. Arrived 1:30 p.m. Stayed at Officer’s Club. Nice place. Good meals & nice bed.

Oct. 7, 1918 – Left Etaples at 10:40 a.m. Came to Ytres via Hesdin, Doullens, Arras & Bapaume. Arrived 3:30 a.m., 8/10/18. No sleep. Nothing to eat or drink.

Oct. 8, 1918 – Came to 130 F. Amb. Had breakfast. Joined my unit at 1:30 p.m. in front of Ephey. Everybody advancing. Slept in dugout or rather tried. No blankets, was very cold all night.

[staffsreg]

thank you Ann,

Fascinating!

How times change.....

Cheers,

Ivan.

[Chris Henschke]

Under some circumstances, one month was possible.

With reference to Army Orders 252 and 253 of 1915, N.C.Os and men who agreed to continue serving for the duration of the war would, after signing Army form W. 3125 or W. 3126, be permitted to proceed on leave of absence for one month from a date selected by themselves. This was, provided they could be "spared from military duty, and (if overseas) that accommodation on the leave boats is available."

Also,

"1679 – Leave of Absence : Warrant Officers, Non – Commissioned Officers and Men retained with the Colours for Duration of War.

General Routine Order 1637 is cancelled.

One month’s leave of absence will be granted to Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned officers and men who in the ordinary course would have become due for discharge on the termination of their engagement provided they are recommended by their Commanding Officer.

Such leave of absence will be granted at the discretion of General Officers Commanding provided these Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers and men can be spared from military duty and accommodation on the leave boat is available.

(Authority :- A.C.I. No 1328 dated 3rd July, 1916)."

Chris Henschke

[staffsreg]

thanks Chris!

superb answer.

'Spared from military duty'?

who could be do you think...pay corps filing clerk's third assistant?? LOL

Ivan.

[Joan and Terry]

Quoting a passage from History of the 7th Service Battalion The York and Lancaster Regiment (Pioneers) the Regiment my Grandfather served with "The men were all anxious for leave.None had been given to the 7th York and Lancaster,except under special grounds,since the previous Christmas,while to men in other units of the Division it had been granteed freely,even when our men were field firing at Willsworthy.No one wished to go from England,perhaps for ever,without visiting home again.The subject was a sore,which became more and more aggravated,until the 7th July,when final orders to be in readiness for crossing the Channel,brought it to a head.The Colonel interviewed the General,and forty-eight hours' leave was granted to some 25 per cent of the Battalion,preference being given to married men who could pay their own fare.Next day a similar concession was made,and although great care was taken in the granting,50 per cent,were naturally aggrieved"

I have often thought the Pioneers had a rough time of things,is it just me or did the PBI get looked after more than the PBP?

[tracy21020]

Hello

I thought the following might be interesting. It's from my Grandfather's diary August 1917 in Salonica.

Tracy

First, I’ll mention where Summer Hill is. It is a convalescent camp for all men who have been in hospital. They are collected here and sent up the line again to their respective regiments.

Here I hoped for a pass. Any thoughts were I’ve been on active services over two years, have been up the line in this country faithfully doing my duty. Have no prospect of leave though I am fully entitled to one. Surely they will give me a pass for a few hours. I made enquiry and found out you had to be here 17 days before you had one then 2 passes are allowed to each company. The company may be anything from 100 up so I saw that I had another disappointment in store as there were men who had been here 6 weeks and more and put passes in every week but did not have them sanctioned. So I am back of the line again. Have not had a pass, been on active service 2 years and 5 months. Had no leave and I curse the red tape that is the cause of these things. So do all the other Tommys. We all have our thoughts, perhaps we think of the many officers we saw down there arm in arm with a nurse. Why if they enjoy themselves, shouldn’t we. I have a little more to add to this later but curse the red tape and give us men like Kitchener who understand we soldiers not ....... males wearing different grades of officers uniforms, who understand us about as much as we wonder who made them officers.

[Dave6274]

There was one exeption to Leave. The Ghurka's. they have fewer spells of leave . when they do go on leave they go for up to six months. This due to traveling to Nepal.

Dave.

[southern geordie]

Servicemen are paid by the 'day'; every day. Leave is described as "privilege leave" Technically leave is designated as a privilege having been (granted), therefore, not as of 'right'. In safe areas servicemen may have a declared leave allowance, but in imergencies and in 'active service areas, a serviceman must remain at his post, regardless of time and circumstance. unless he is released by proper authority. In other words, leave depends on circumstances. Hence soldiers fight during the night, week-ends, Sundays and on Christmas night, if ordered to do so. That is why there exists the discrepancies in the amount of leave individual servicemen experience in times of war.

[Joan and Terry]

Servicemen are paid by the 'day'; every day. Leave is described as "privilege leave" Technically leave is designated as a privilege having been (granted), therefore, not as of 'right'. In safe areas servicemen may have a declared leave allowance, but in imergencies and in 'active service areas, a serviceman must remain at his post, regardless of time and circumstance. unless he is released by proper authority. In other words, leave depends on circumstances. Hence soldiers fight during the night, week-ends, Sundays and on Christmas night, if ordered to do so. That is why there exists the discrepancies in the amount of leave individual servicemen experience in times of war.

I can go along with that,it was just that in the book I was quoting from History of the 7th York and Lancaster Regiment (Pioneers),everyone had been granted leave except the Poor B****Y Pioneers and it seemed to me that they were treated a bit differently from the rest.Perhaps also the fact that my Grandfather was one of the Pioneers in that particular regiment,I felt they had a rough deal at the time,especially when they were about to go to France.

Regards

Joan

[Taters]

Hi All

I had always assumed that a whole Battn. was granted leave at the same time. If this isnt the case how on earth can any of use say "great uncle Joe Bloggs fought at the battle of xxxxxxx"?

Just because a Battn. was in a our particular man might have been on leave???

Does that mean that apart from men who were wonded or killed we can never say anything about their exploits even when we know their Battn.????

My illusions are shattered!

[saberhagen427]

Service records might have some relevant information, where they survive, but in many cases we really don't know whether a particular man was on leave, sick, wounded or on some other duties on any particular day. We can piece things together from circumstantial evidence and narrow it down but it's difficult to eliminate all uncertainty.

I would assume that leave wouldn't be granted if a battalion was assigned to take part in a major offensive but I don't know any details of the procedures.

Battalions being relieved from the front line was something entirely different from leave. Even during "rest" periods their time would often be taken up by training or manual labour.

[MelPack]

Does that mean that apart from men who were wonded or killed we can never say anything about their exploits even when we know their Battn.????

My illusions are shattered!

Unfortunately, Taters, that is the reality. You could also factor in periods of sickness, recovery from wounds, being retained as part of the Battalion cadre during a major offensive etc. Even in intances where service records have survived, it is often the case that only a partial biography can be constructed.

I am very fortunate in that I have the day to day diary of one of my grandfathers. He was granted leave to the UK in March 1918 and in his absence a quarter of his Battalion were incapicitated by a surprise mustard gas attack. He rejoined his Battalion on 20th March at the front and guess what happened next day? Within days he was one of less than forty left.

regards

Mel

[Taters]

Hi Mel

I have service records, and a few words past down the generations - but no personal diaries.

I don't want to get too gloomy or philosophical - but if it wasn't for your grandfather's leave in March 1918 you might not be with us now.

........But I suppose its the same for most of us - a stray bullet, mustard shell or a day's leave are the difference between us existing or never being born.

You must treasure your grandfather's diary - makes me think how thin the thread is from that genreation to ours.

Seems like a message to make the most of our lives.

Thanks for your post.

[staffsreg]

thank you all for your answers.. it still boils down to--poor Tommy!

Ivan.

[Joan and Terry]

thank you all for your answers.. it still boils down to--poor Tommy!

Ivan.

You certainly got that right "poor Tommy",Officers were entitled to sick leave and allowed to arrange their own treatment but it sometimes delayed their recovery.After March 1917 officers below the rank of Colonel became subject to the same rules as other ranks,though they were cared for in seperate officer wards.

So maybe there could be a case for Poor B*****Y Officers

Joan

[Gunboat]

My grandfather who landed in France in August 1914 and was demobbed in February 1919 had a total of ten days leave over two periods in 1917. He spent the rest of the time on the Western Front

[Muerrisch]

Mind you, pre-war in India and the like, soldiers were allowed long 'furloughs' but were always on the strength of a unit for rationing, discipline etc. So one could go on a planned leave to a city or a hill station and be fed and watered on arrival. This, of course, is part and parcel of the 7/24 nature of the contract, in that the army was both paternalistic and demanding. It worked.

[staffsreg]

My grandfather who landed in France in August 1914 and was demobbed in February 1919 had a total of ten days leave over two periods in 1917. He spent the rest of the time on the Western Front

Bloody hell Gunboat, one very lucky Tommy!!!

any stories of him?

Ivan