Crunchy Posted 25 November , 2006 Share Posted 25 November , 2006 I have been given a white metal King's Royal Rifle Corps cap badge. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner so I'm unable to post a picture of it. Briefly it is the same pattern as a KC regular pattern badge but without any battle honours on the arms of the cross. I'm pretty sure it is a die restrike. I cannot find any reference that lists this badge and its origin has pricked my interest. My question is: were they actually used by a Volunteer or TF battalion of the KRRC or is it simply a figment of a restriker's imagination? Any assistance would be appreciated. regards Crunchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 25 November , 2006 Share Posted 25 November , 2006 Crunchy, A KRRC cap badge in whitemetal, with no battle honours could indicate either one of it's Militia Battalions or a Volunteer Battalion c.1881, but it would have to have a QVC, not so sure about a KC though. I'll have a look through my references to see if I can come up with an answer. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 25 November , 2006 Share Posted 25 November , 2006 Hello, My grandfather served in the KRRC for 13 years from 1870 and I have his badge which is a pale brassy colour. I have always understood that all rifle regiments wore black badges and that hence this one had been 'cleaned' at some time and worn as a broche, perhaps by his wife. The note about militia batallions caught my eye although I am sure my grandfather was a regular and probably served with 2nd batallion in India possibly in the 1st Afghan War. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 25 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2006 Graham, Many thanks for your prompt reply. Its a tough one. Regards Crunchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 25 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2006 Old Tom, Many thanks. If only that badge could talk. Cheers Crunchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 25 November , 2006 Share Posted 25 November , 2006 Attached are a couple of KRRC Militia's I have in my collection. The QVC and the KC which is maker marked. I really don't know where this KC one lies in terms of dating as it's obviously post 1902. The militias ceased to exist in 1908 however the KRRC did have quite a few WW1 reserve batallions and maybe they weren't entitled to wear the regulars' badge with battle honours. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 29 November , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Hi Keith, Many thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. Mine is the same as the KC version you have displyed, except the finish is WM. Cheers Crunchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Heavey Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 As a former rifleman myself, I would say that only the KRRC had blacked out capbadges backed on a red patch. All Rifle regiments had black buttons however. That is why 1st and 3rd Battalions Royal Green Jackets had silver capbadges and the 2nd battalion had a black one, 1RGJ being formerly Ox & Bucks LI, 2RGJ formerly KRRC and 3RGJ formerly Rifle Brigade. Rifle regiments also wear black leather gloves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 When you say 2nd Bn wore a black one - when was that as I have only ever seen them in a/a (less NI tours when all badges were blackened)? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Heavey Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Mate this was all the time in a battalion dress sense, but after the defence review and subsequent cuts in around 1992 or 93, 1RGJ was scrapped, 2RGJ then moved to become 1RGJ and 3RGJ became 2RGJ. The Bn lost the black badge then due to this moving around and had to change to the'Rifle Brigade' style silver one - happy we were not. Also had to spell Sergeant with a G and not a J as was the tradition. Dont know why really but there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Thanks. Werre these silver ones locally blackened unde runit arrangements or were they provided in black metal? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 I have a wm KC KRRC cap badge. It belonged to my father who was in 8th KRRC (2nd Queen Victoria's Rifles) in WW2. They were sold in the NAAFI etc to, I believe, members of the London Regiment who were badged with standard KRRC badges in wartime. HOWEVER, as far as I know they were never actually worn on uniform. See that my father is wearing standard KRRC badges in my avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 I have seen a brass KRRC badge that had never been blackened and was told this was due to wartime shortages in that they were delivered to the Bn unpainted. I had always presumed that after 1937, and the move of the London Regts to become TA Bns of regular regts, the QVR had retained their own cap badge. I know that the 1st Bn QVR wore their own badge in 1940 when they went to France and got right royally stuffed on the retreat to Dunkirk. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 I had always presumed that after 1937, and the move of the London Regts to become TA Bns of regular regts, the QVR had retained their own cap badge. I know that the 1st Bn QVR wore their own badge in 1940 when they went to France and got right royally stuffed on the retreat to Dunkirk. Alan It's true. 1st QVRs, 7th KRRC, were "right royally stuffed" in France in 1940. However, this was at Calais, they were part of an infantry brigade that was landed from England and had not been part of the BEF. They held Calais while the BEF escaped at Dunkirk. However, my father was in the duplicate battalion which was 2nd QVRs, or 8th KRRC. They were a motor battalion in 9th Armoured division. The guys who were captured in France were possibly wearing the pre-war QVR badges. The duplicate battalion wore standard black KRRC cap badges, shoulder titles, both khaki slip on and sew on types. The latter are red letters on rifle green canvas. I know this for a fact, because I still have those issued to my father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Many thanks. It is always good to get an informed source on things like that. The 2nd QVR Bn were raised I think from 1937/8 when a lot of the TA was 'doubled up' by raising a duplicate Bn. This can get confusing when researching regtl history for example I was reading the Berkshire Yeomanry history trying to work out hwen they stopped wearing the Gunner badge and reaodpted the wonky donkey one and it is contradictory becase it fails to mention it had a duplicate unit and only recites the regts history in the Far East for 1944-5 but at the same time it has in its descendent's drill hall today houses a photo of Bershire yeomanry personnel wearing the wonky donkey in Germany in 1945! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 I have a wm KC KRRC cap badge. It belonged to my father who was in 8th KRRC (2nd Queen Victoria's Rifles) in WW2. They were sold in the NAAFI etc to, I believe, members of the London Regiment who were badged with standard KRRC badges in wartime. HOWEVER, as far as I know they were never actually worn on uniform. See that my father is wearing standard KRRC badges in my avatar. Are we talking regular KRRC badges or those without battle honour here ? Of the London Regiment badges affiliated to the KRRC in WW1, most if not all had badges came in all metals be it w/m, brass blackened and plain) and bronze. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 29 November , 2006 Share Posted 29 November , 2006 Are we talking regular KRRC badges or those without battle honour here ? Of the London Regiment badges affiliated to the KRRC in WW1, most if not all had badges came in all metals be it w/m, brass blackened and plain) and bronze. Keith We are talking the standard KRRC badge, complete with battle honours. It is made from the same yellow metal as the other badges I have, but has been "dipped" instead of painted black, IIRC the three ex London Regiment units that actually became a part of the KRRC by WW2 were the 1st and 2nd QVRs, (7th and 8th KRRC) the 1st and 2nd Rangers (9th and 10th KRRC) and the 1st and 2nd Queens Westminsters (11th and 12th KRRC). This "silver" badge is none of these, but the standard 60th Rifles pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 1 December , 2006 Share Posted 1 December , 2006 Many thanks. It would not the first or last time the NAAFI sold something of an unofficial pattern which would incur an RSM's displeasure! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 Hello Chaps, As far as my memory relates from when I was avidly collecting WW.1 British and Commonwealth Military Cap Badges, A WM (white metal) Kings Crown KRRC Cap Badge, WW.1 era, was either for 'TA' or 'Service' battalions. I think you will find an example in Vol.1 of Kipling and King. Seph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 5 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2007 As far as my memory relates A WM (white metal) Kings Crown KRRC Cap Badge, WW.1 era, was either for 'TA' or 'Service' battalions. I think you will find an example in Vol.1 of Kipling and King. Seph. Hi Seph, Thanks for this. Have checked all refrences to KRRC in Vol 1 of K&K and can't find anything on a wm KC badge. When you were collecting, did the badge have battle honours or were the arms of the cross blank? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 Chris, I went through K&K, Cox, Gaylor, Wilkinson et al and could find no reference to this badge. I doubt it is Terr KRRC as they had no Terr Bns (The London regt recruited from their area) until the 1937 reorg of the TA. It would be unusual for a KRRC SB to have a different badge (It did happen with Pals Bns elsewhere but these are well documented) with the exception of KRRC (CLB) Cadets. who had their own badge. Consequently if it is a genuine pattern then I would be looking at a School OTC or cadets possibly. The London Rifle Bde certainly did have their own badge (much faked) with the LRB badge with a cadets scroll underneath. OTC s and cadets is one area where the reference books are patchy on. Even the CLB one is not shown in any book except for Reginald Coxes badges of the British Empire in the Great War (sic). A picture of the KRRC CLB badge including a photo of it being worn is at: http://www.clcgb.org.uk/Looking%20Back.pdf Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 5 January , 2007 Share Posted 5 January , 2007 The badge itself in close up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 19 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2007 Max, Many thanks for this. I was quite unaware of this badge. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conijoni Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 Max, Many thanks for this. I was quite unaware of this badge. Regards Chris The badge is CLB Cadets. The Church Lads Brigade (like Boys Brigade) was founded in 1891. Recognised as a Cadet Force in 1911. Was affiliated to KRRC from 1917 to 1930. Reasons - 16th KRRC was raised from CLB, also Lord Grenfell was at same time Governor of CLB and Commandant of KRRC. This badge was NOT worn by 16th KRRC. Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 20 July , 2007 Share Posted 20 July , 2007 Rifle regiments also wear black leather gloves. You mean Officers and WO's in this context? because all OR's wear black leather gloves. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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