Grenade Type

[trenchwalker]

Can any body tell what mark this is is it a no 19?

[Max Poilu]

No, it's a No.24 MK I.

[Guest Trenchwire]

definatly a brit no24 mk 1

[trenchwalker]

but aint they smooth

[Max Poilu]

No, the No.24 MkII has a smooth body, as does the model that replaced it - the No.35. The main difference between those two is a much shorter shank where the rod inserts on the No.35.

The No.24 MkI was an updated (simpler and safer) No.20 with the same lateral serrations.

No.19 is a completely different model (a hand thrown percussion grenade rather than a rodded rifle grenade as with the 20/24/35 etc).

[Guest Trenchwire]

why are you selling it on ebay

[Max Poilu]

Sorry for the rant but it might be nice to at least post a word of acknowledgement here, especially as it seems you simply wanted a confirmation of model for your ebay sale.

It's hardly the first time Trenchwalker.

You are also likely to find your item pulled by the eBay police. The description does not satisfy eBay's strict listing policy regulations in terms of inert ordnance.

I would also be wary of disclosing that it was (by you?) recovered from a battlefield and presumably bought through French and UK customs?

[Simon Jones]

I understand rifle grenades to have been prohibited by the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988:

(3) For paragraph (c ) of subsection (1) there shall be substituted— " (c ) any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in paragraph (b ) above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb (or other like missile), or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid."

[Max Poilu]

Hi Simon, the key missing factor though is inert or live. Charged with explosive = illegal but once fully inert they cease to become a weapon (ie "designed to explode") - in a similar way a legally deactivated gun is not legally classed as a firearm any more. This is why any of us can go to a militaria fair or dealer and purchase inert ordnance.

An inert grenade is not illegal to own. It is simply an empty metal vessel. With rounds for instance strictly speaking, the law for ammunition may seem surprising - a rifle round consists of case, propellant, primer and head. All the component parts can be legally owned separately - and three or less together do not a round make, however, put all four together and you break the law. Obviously the authorities would look at context and quantity and any intent to use though and if you have empty 'vessels' and the means to re-fill them and make them active you would be most suspicious.

Here is the key passage from the Firearms act:

2.9 “Ammunition” means ammunition for

any firearm and includes grenades, bombs

and other like missiles whether capable of

use with a firearm or not, and also includes

prohibited ammunition. It will be noted

that the definition of ammunition does

not include ingredients and components

of ammunition; it is only assembled

ammunition that is controlled under the

Act, not component parts. Empty cartridge

cases, for example, are not “ammunition”.

The only exception to this is the missiles for

ammunition prohibited under section 5 of the

1968 Act, for example expanding or armourpiercing

bullets. Such missiles are themselves

regarded as “ammunition” and are subject to

control accordingly.

Much more here from a previous topic.

And the home office PDF page here:

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-p...pdf?view=Binary

[Simon Jones]

Thanks Max

I can see this one has gone backwards and forwards already. I had understood rifle grenades to be prohibited under Section 5 and therefore it is irrelevant whether they are inert or not. I can see that you disagree. I am not a lawyer and won't be commenting further!

Regards

Simon

[Max Poilu]

Yes, but only prohibited as in if they are a usable live weapon. See the passage above or the entire Home Office document - takes a bit of wading through...

The underlined part above is the most important section of the act in this respect:

...it is only assembled [ie complete/live/ready for use] ammunition that is controlled under the Act...

At it's most basic a Molotov cocktail is a prohibited weapon just as much as a live grenade, shell or round. However, owning an empty bottle, a piece of fuze and a jerrycan of petrol is not...but put them together as a usable weapon and things are rather different. There are other laws of course with respect to 'bomb making equipment', terrorist activity, intent, but the average collector with an empty/inert Mills bomb, 18 pounder shell or clip of inert .303 etc is categorically not breaking any law.

To be sure it is not illegal to own an inert and deactivated grenade/shell/ammunition round etc (with certain very specific exclusions with respect to certain rounds).

As you say it has been done to death in the link above but that is the law.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Can someone clear this up for me then please. Say I am walking through the battlefields and a plough has turned a shell to the top of a furrow. I notice the shell is empty can I bring it through customs without declairing it or am I breaking the law. Same goes for a .303 round which has been deactivated nose cone off and codite removed can it come through customs without any problems from either side of the channel.

Please advise.

Kevp.s. Max was right the ebay sale has been pulled.

[Max Poilu]

Kevin, have a look at the link in the post above for full details:

 

Or the biggest debate (of many over the years on relics) here:

 

Technically to take as much as a lead shrapnel ball from a field is against French law. In the current climate French customs will not look kindly on any such items coming through customs. UK customs will sometimes say 'no problem' other times the opposite view.

As I say there is far more detail in the links above to save posting it all again but in a nutshell I would advise against bringing anything back of this nature whatsoever.