Unknown Bayonet

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

I've had this bayonet for a number of years, but have been undable to find out when it was made or which country it comes from. Anyone have any ideas?

Regards,

Stewart

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

hi stewart

my opinion is that it might be a french bayonet

any markings on it?

regards

tuna

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Tuna,

It does look like a French bayonet, but the blade is a horrible cheap type thing compared to the French type. It does not carry the usuall French type markings. The only markings I can find on it are the ones shown in the lower photo, ie, a 'F' and a 'B'.

The handle is very similar to the French 1866 type, but the rivit is mich higher up.

I've never seen another like it.

Regards,

Stewart

[auchonvillerssomme]

at first glance it looks like a Argentinian Model 1891.

Mick

[gnr.ktrha]

at first glance it looks like a Argentinian Model 1891.

Hello,

The blade is different to examples I have seen and there are no Argentinian Stamps on it. The blade is very flat and cheap looking.

Thanks for the suggestion

Regards,

Stewart

[museumtom]

Can you tell me the inside diameter of the muzzle ring?

Tom.

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

The ring is 1.8cm in Diameter, and it also has a notch at the top centre, just like the usual French type. The notch is only 4.5mm wide and about 1mm deep.

Regards,

Stewart

[museumtom]

Ok so the mrd is 18mm, this gives us a clue as to which rifle it was used on. Here is a list of weapons that utilises bayonet MRDs of 17, 18 and 19mm. It also gives the blade length and other data on these bayonets.;

17. 0 Australia. 1943 Owen SMG. Blade length 10 inches. 5. 5 inch fullers. Overall length 14. 75

inches.

17. 0 Argentina. Mauser Bayonet 1891. Calibre 7. 65mm. Blade length 15. 75 inches. Hilt brass or brass with alloy grips. Overall length 20. 5 inches. Foreward swept quillon on 1909 Model.

17. 0 U. S. A. . Remington short Rifle. 75inch calibre. M1866/71. Socket outside diameter 17. 85 inches. Socket length 3 inches. Blade length 18 inches. Blade width. 75 inches.

17. 1 Germany. Mauser M1871. Blade length 18. 9 inches.

17. 3 USSR 1963 SVD Drugunov. Blade length 150mm.

17. 3 France. M1874. T backed blade. Blade length 522mm.

17. 35 Belgium. M1889. Blade length 247mm.

17. 35 Germany. Seitengewehr 1871/84. Blade length 250mm.

17. 35 USSR. 1874 French gras. Blade length 508mm.

17. 4 Japan Murata 1885 type18. Blade length 460mm.

17. 4 Italy. 1871. Blade length 519mm.

17. 46 U. S. A. Remington long Rifle. 75 inch calibre. Outside diameter of socket 17. 85mm. Socket length 3inches. Blade length 21 to 21. 375 inches. Blade width 20mm.

17. 46 U. S. A. cadet musket M1851. Outside diameter of socket 20. 63mm. Socket length 2. 65 inches. Blade length 14. 5 inches. Blade width 20. 6mm.

17. 5 Bulgaria. 1886 Mannlicher. Blade length 247mm.

17. 5 Austria. Model1886 Mannlicher. Blade length 245mm.

17. 5 Belgium. 1916 Mauser. Blade length17. 625inches. Blade, flattened diamond or cruiform. (1924 Mauser mrd 15mm).

17. 5 USSR. AK47. Knife Bayonet. Blade length 202mm.

17. 5 Australia. Austen SMG. Blade length 6. 5 inches.

17. 5 Austria. Mannlicher 1886.

17. 5 UK 1879 Artillery Sawback. Blade length 24. 25 inches. Overall length 29. 75 inches.

17. 5 France. Chassepot sabre Bayonet, Blade length 22. 5 inches. 2 rivets one up one down with adjustable mrd. Foreward facing quillon used between 1866 and 1874.

17. 5 France. Gras Bayonet 1874. T backed blade. Blade length 20. 5 inches. T backed blade. Overall length 25. 375 inches. Hilt of brass with wood handles. Calibre 11mm. Adjustable MRD. Leaf Spring. The marine Bayonet M1878 had a straight hilt and blade length of 21. 5 inches and used with the Kropatschek Rifle. Calibre 11mm.

17. 5 UK. Yataghan Bayonets bushed for the Martini Henry Rifle. Blade length 22. 8 inches. Overall length 28. 2 inches. Conversion date on ricasso 93.

17. 7 Switzerland. Socket Bayonet for the 1863 Peabody Rifle. Socket length 68mm. Blade length 490mm.

17. 8 UK. Martini Henry Rifle socket Bayonet 1876. Socket length 76mm. Blade length 549mm.

17. 8 UK. Martini Henry. Calibre. 45/. 577 inches. 1871. Blade length 25. 5 inches.

17. 9 UK Elcho Volunteer Bayonet. Blade length 502mm. Overall length 638mm.

17. 9 Italy. Vetterli Vitali M1871/87. Blade length 11. 68 inches.

17:85 Bavaria. Ersatz butcher Bayonet 1915. Blade length 360mm. (Turkey had a converted butcher Bayonet 246mm).

18. 0 France. Yataghan Bayonet M1866/70. Blade length 567mm.

18. 0 Egypt. M1949. Double edged blade. Blade length 230mm.

18. 0 Egypt. M1867/70. Blade length 578mm.

18. 0 Turkey. Peabody Rifle socket Bayonet 1873. Blade length 500mm.

18. 0 Venezuela and Egypt. 1949 FN export pattern sword Bayonet.

18. 0 UK. Naval cutlass Bayonet pat1887. Blade length 25. 75 inches. Overall length 31. 25 inches. Like the 1879 Artillery Bayonet without the sawback.

18. 0 UK. Wilkinson prototype1888. Blade length 12inches. Overall length 17. 4inches.

18. 0 UK. Trials Bayonet for the Martini Henry rifle1886. Blade length 18. 4 inches. Overall length 24. 3 inches.

18. 0 UK. Bushed from p56 p58 and p60 Bayonets for Martini Henry Rifle. Extra machining on pommel. No lead on slot at top of hilt. Scabbard leather.

18. 0 UK Bushed yataghan Bayonet for the Martini Henry Rifle. Blade length 578mm. Overall length 714mm. Approved 1873. Converted from 1856/58 Bayonet.

18. 0 UK. Bushed yataghan Bayonet for the Martini Henry Rifle. No lead on slot on top of hilt. Extra machining on pommel. Garrisson artillery, 1878.

18. 0 UK Elcho sawback used on the Martini Henry Rifle. Blade length 505mm. Overall length 641mm.

18. 0 (Nominal) Belgium. Comblain Rifle 1882. Calibre 11. 4 inches. Blade length 20. 5 inches. T back blade like gras. Two rivets, foreward swept quillon.

18. 0 UK. Mark 2 Sten carbine. Overall length 11. 7 inches.

18. 0 UK Sawback 1875. Two types. Blade length 514mm. Overall length 648mm. Blade length 457mm. Overall length 591mm.

18. 0 South Africa. Uzi Bayonet. Blade length 6. 7 inches. Overall length 11. 5 inches.

18. 0 UK Shortened yataghan Bayonet for cadets. Blade length 12 inches. Overall length 17. 6 inches.

18. 0 Portugal. Socket Bayonet. Socket length 68mm. Trianguar blade length 547mm. 36mm Rifle slot.

18. 1 UK. Sten carbine Mark 1. Blade length 8 inches. Overall length 12 inches.

18. 1 UK. Martini Henry Artillery carbine Mark 2 1893. Bushed yataghan. No lead on slot above hilt. Extra machining on pommel. Scabbard of steel and later made of leather.

18. 1 UK. Pattern 1853 converted and bushed for the Martini Henry Rifle. Socket length 3inches. Blade length. 432mm. Overall length 526mm.

18. 2 UK. Volunteer short sawback. Blade length 305mm.

Overall length 422mm.

18. 25 U. S. A. . Scout rifle1873. Socket length 2. 625 inches. Blade length 18 inches. Outside diameter of socket 21. 82mm. Blade width. 43 inches.

18. 25 U. S. A. M1882 Rifle. Outside diameter of socket. 75 inches. Blade length 21. 625 inches. Socket length 2. 625 inches. Blade width. 75 inches.

18. 3 UK. Enfield Martini trials Bayonet pattern 1887. Blade length 18. 5 inches. Overall length approx 23. 7 inches.

18. 3 UK. Trials Bayonet. Socket length 3 inches. Blade length 511mm. Overall length 638mm. Approved 1876.

18. 35 UK. 1867 snider socket Bayonet. Socket length 67mm. Blade length 548mm. Triangular blade. Rifle slot length 36mm. (one noted with a MRD of 18mm).

18. 35 Egypt. Remington Rolling Block Rifle yataghan Bayonet1867/70. Blade length 576mm.

18. 65 U. S. A. . Cadet Rifle M1873. Outside diameter of socket 20. 5mm. Socket length 3 inches. Blade length 16. 25 inches. Nominal blade width. 8 inches.

18. 65 U. S. A. . Rifle M1873. Outside diameter of socket 20. 5mm. Socket length 3 inches. Blade length 18 inches. Blade width. 75 inches.

19. 0 Austria. 1867 to1875 Bayonets for the Werndl Rifle, also for Austrian Lorenz Rifle 1854. Cruciform blade length 480mm.

19. 3 UK. Cadets socket Bayonet 1844. Socket length 80mm. Triangular blade length 329mm.

19. 3 UK. Elcho Bayonet. Blade length 503mm. Overall diameter 635mm.

19. 5 UK. 1869 experimental. 45 Martini Henry.

19. 5 UK. Blade length 495mm. Overall diameter 630mm. For use in the Ashanti.

19. 5 UK. Yataghan sword Bayonet c1860. Blade length 470mm.

19. 76 U. S. A. . Hall Rifle M1819. Blade length 16inches. Blade width 22mm. Socket length 2. 93inches. Outside diameter of socket 20. 6mm.

19. 8 UK. Elcho Bayonet 1970. Blade length 457mm. Overall length 587mm.

19. 8 Australia. Owen SMG Bayonet. Blade length 5. 63 inches.

19. 84 U. S. A. . Rifle musket M1855/70. Blade length 18 inches. Blade width. 75 inches. Socket length 3 inches. Outside diameter of socket 23. 0 mm.

19. 84 U. S. A. . Colt revolving Rifle Bayonet M1855. Outside diameter of socket 23. 8mm. Socket length 3 inches. Blade length 18 inches. Blade width 20. 5mm.

19. 9 UK. Snider carbine. 577. May be bushed to 17. 8mm for use with Martini Henry. Blade length 19. 95 inches.

Now you have a ball park to work in.

Regards.

Tom.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Tom would it have been easier to list those it wouldnt fit?

Mick

[museumtom]

It was easier for me to cut and paste the lot. He does not give the blade length, Its a nice little list to have either way and not available anywhere else.

Regards.

Tom.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Sorry Tom I was being flippant.

What about a rebladed Franch M1866? Although not entirely sure how, technically, it could be rebladed.

mick

[museumtom]

Beats me. The blade is a real puzzler. I have posted a link to this page on the bayonet forum and you should have a result quite soon. They really know their stuff.

Regards.

Tom.

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Tom,

Thank you for all your help. The blade is 48.5 cm long, or just over 19 inches. It would be just great to find out something about it, I've never seen it before in any of the Bayonet books etc.

Fingers crossed

Stewart

[museumtom]

This is from Carl (www.old-smithy.info);

Item is a French Defense Nationale bayonet made during the franco Prussian War, it uses an old sword blade and a remington type hilt. These are not common items and if you look on my site under France you will see several variations using other sword blades. A nice item for the serious French collector

Regards.

Tom.

[gnr.ktrha]

Well, well, there you go. It's great to finally know what it is. I've searched for years, but never seen another. Thanks for all your help Tom. I did look at some Bayonet websites in the past but only saw the usual suspects.

Thanks for all your help and time.

Regards,

Stewart

[museumtom]

All the credit goes to Carl also known as oldsmithy.

Glad to help.

Tom.

[findabetterole]

All the credit goes to Carl also known as oldsmithy.

Glad to help.

Tom.

Stewart,

I would be very wary of this item, reason, if you cannot find any form of proof mark then its more likely to a repro coming from the Indian continent. They are flooding the market at the moment. A genuine item is of stamped steel, but these items are hammered out so you'll see the uneveness in the blades finish.

Seph