paulfeeney Posted 31 July , 2006 Share Posted 31 July , 2006 Hi everyone I have recently unearthed 2 photos of my grandparents wearing what I think are late WW1 uniforms (or slightly after). Can anybody shed any light on these? Any info would be much appreciated. The 2 people in the photo's come from the Coventry (midlands) area. Many thanks in advance Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 31 July , 2006 Share Posted 31 July , 2006 Hi Paul and welcome to the forum, The top one is usually referred to as 'hospital blues'. I have a photo of my grandfather in an identical uniform when he was back in this country recovering from wounds. Fraid I can't identify the other one but you can bet your boots that someone will. Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 31 July , 2006 Share Posted 31 July , 2006 Paul Welcome to the forum. First photo, your Grandfather, cap badge identifies him as an artilleryman and shows him wearing Hospital Blues, he was wounded and hospitalised at some point. Second photo, your Grandmother (I presume) is possibly wearing his 'normal' uniform, which again shows an artillery cap badge and two wound stripes on the left cuff. Hope this helps for starters. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 31 July , 2006 Share Posted 31 July , 2006 The enamelled lapel Badge he is wearing could be a "Comrades of the Great War" Members badge [early larger type} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 1 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2006 Hi all Many thanks for your help. It never struck me for a minute that my Gran could be wearing my Grandad's uniform! Also thanks both for the badge identifications. I think that the answers now throw open some more questions: 1. Bearing in mind he was from Coventry, maybe his regiment was the Warwicks? 2. I wonder what hospital he was in? 3. How was he wounded? etc. etc It's right what they say 'once the geneology bug has got you, there's no escape' Thanks again, and if anyone can point me in the right direction to get any further info re the above, please do. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 Paul Can't help you with points 2 & 3 but going by his cap badge he was in an Artillery unit, although whether RFA (Royal Field Artillery), RHA (Royal Horse Artillery), or RGA (Royal Garrison Artillery) cannot tell as they used the same badge. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 and if you can tell us his name we may be able to help further..... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 1 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2006 and if you can tell us his name we may be able to help further..... Steve Hi Steve His name was John Clancy Gough Born 11 June 1897 (would make him 17 at the outbreak) Lived in Coventry. He was wounded at least twice. Sorry this is all I know A long shot but, after a search on the National Archives website, there is a medal card available for purchase in .pdf format (catalogue ref no. WO372/8) for a John C Gough, Royal Field Artillery, with 2 seperate regiment numbers 1713, and 841238. he is listed as a driver. I don't mind purchasing this if I can be sure it is him, but I can't be sure. Hope this can be of further help. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 Shock - Horror!! Pal discovers his grandmother was a transvestite! If I were you, I would invest the money and get what information it contains. With the clues you have already, I would say that he must be your man. Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunboat Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 That is a great photo of your grandmother and probably quite unique as I have never seen or heard of wives or sweethearts being photogtaphed in their partners uniform before. What a handsome couple they are. Notice how the capbadge on both photos is a bit skewed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 A long shot but, after a search on the National Archives website, there is a medal card available for purchase in .pdf format (catalogue ref no. WO372/8) for a John C Gough, Royal Field Artillery, with 2 seperate regiment numbers 1713, and 841238. he is listed as a driver. I don't mind purchasing this if I can be sure it is him, but I can't be sure. Paul It could be him, but equally it may not. There are 32 John Gough's on the MIC's, some can be discounted because of wrong middle initial but it is equally possible that he was simply recorded as John Gough. This one may be a little easier to prove as this soldier's two numbers suggest he was a Territorial Soldier and not a regular. The Territorial unit would have been his 'local' RFA unit in which he started as 1713 (which suggests a pre-war or very early war enlistment) and was then renumbered in early 1917 as 841238. If we can prove that the number allocation 841238 was for a Midlands based unit (preferably Coventry) then we may have him nailed down a bit better (although still not 100%, the only way we could do that is if you have any medals or his service record survives at the NA). I would suggest you either re-title this thread to draw in the Artillery experts or start a new one in Units/Formations asking for someone to see what RFA unit was allocated that number range, there are Artillery experts on the forum who can do that fairly quickly. Hope this helps. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 He was wounded at least twice. That sits very nicely with the fact that the uniform your Grandmother is wearing has two wound stripes. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 Paul, The Number 841238 is a Territorial Number, and suggests these units, 840001-845000 243 Brigade, RFA TF/ 1/4 S Midland Brigade. 840001-845000 308 Brigade, RFA TF/ 2/4 S Midland Brigade. could fit in with Coventry. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 The Number 841238 is a Territorial Number, and suggests these units, 840001-845000 243 Brigade, RFA TF/ 1/4 S Midland Brigade. 840001-845000 308 Brigade, RFA TF/ 2/4 S Midland Brigade. From the LLT mothersite..... RFA Batteries... CCXLIII (H) - Territorial Force 1st Line, 48th Division from pre-war until October 1916, when broken up. Redesignated from IV South Midland (H) Brigade May 1916. Batteries from Coventry and Rugby. The Medal Card of John C Gough looks a much better prospect based on that. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 1 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2006 Hi all I purchased the medal card for John C Gough and am now trying to make sense of it. I feel that thanks to all of your help, I am getting closer. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 1 August , 2006 Share Posted 1 August , 2006 Hi Paul and welocme to the Forum There is no entry against the Theatre of War; this normally means he deplyed to France after 1916 but..... I also understand that the 4 figure serial number (1713) is linked to the TA ... but I have been wrong before! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 2 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2006 From the LLT mothersite..... RFA Batteries... CCXLIII (H) - Territorial Force 1st Line, 48th Division from pre-war until October 1916, when broken up. Redesignated from IV South Midland (H) Brigade May 1916. Batteries from Coventry and Rugby. The Medal Card of John C Gough looks a much better prospect based on that. Steve Hi SteveE Apologies for being a bit thick, but can you break that down for me in simple chunks. Also, what is the LLT mothersite? Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 2 August , 2006 Share Posted 2 August , 2006 The Long Long Trail = LLT, there is a link at the top left of the forum page. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 2 August , 2006 Share Posted 2 August , 2006 Paul, Territorial Force artillery units were units locally raised from men around the local home base (usually a Drill Hall). Prior to the war these men would meet up for training and attend annual camps, pretty much like today's Territorial Army. Because of the part-time nature of their service they were nearly all very local men to their unit. The basic unit of Artillery was a Battery. The next level was a Brigade. A Brigade would be made up several Batteries. In peacetime the Batteries would have stayed together and trained together in their set locations only coming together with the rest of the Brigade on occasion. In this case the batteries were located in Drill Halls at Coventry and Rugby. Many of these Drill Halls still exist, by the way. A "1st Line" Brigade was one that existed pre-war. At the outbreak of War the Territorial battalions were "mobilised" (made ready for War duty) and those men that had already volunteered for overseas duty stayed within the 1st Line Brigade, with those that hadn''t volunteered (or were too young/old, etc.) forming the nucleus of a "2nd Line" Brigade that would remain in the UK when the 1st Line Brigade went overseas. That particular Brigade was known as "IV South Midland (H) Brigade " until May 1916, when it was renamed as CCXLIII (H) Brigade (i.e. 243rd Howitzer Brigade). The 4th South Midland Brigade was part of 48th Division: http://www.1914-1918.net/48div.htm The Division served on the Somme during 1916, and later in Italy. 243rd Artillery Brigade was broken up in October 1916 and its men/batteries transferred elsewhere. You would need a REAL expert on the Artillery to trace where he went after that... Territorial numbers were originally allocated by the local TF starting from 1908 (with afew exceptions) when the TF was created out of the local Militias. Because these numbers were local, most a very low (less than 5000 in general) and of course these low numbers were reused many times when the Army ballooned in size. This became a bureaucratic nightmare and the TF men were later renumbered in early 1917. Each Artillery Brigade (or Infantry Battalion) was allocated a range of numbers, with the above ranges being allocated to the 4th South Midland Brigade (for both its 1st and 2nd Line units). The fact that he seems to have served overseas with his earlier 4-digit number suggests that he initially went overseas some time between 1-1-1916 and the first couple of months of 1917. Hope that helps, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 2 August , 2006 Share Posted 2 August , 2006 Well fielded Stebie, couldn't have put it better myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulfeeney Posted 2 August , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2006 Hi Steve Brilliant! I think I've got it now. And to think it all started for me with just couple of photo's. Many thanks to everyone for their help. Keep up the good work Cheers Paul P.S. Re the medal card. Does anyone know what the text in the medal section means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 2 August , 2006 Share Posted 2 August , 2006 P.S. Re the medal card. Does anyone know what the text in the medal section means? The reference you refer to "RFA/149B TF Page 9897" is the Army Medal Office reference to your man's entry in the actual Medal Roll itself. These Rolls are held at the National Archives, Kew and can be viewed there once you've translated the AMO reference into yet another reference (WO329/xxxx series) using the cross-reference books there. For Infantry Regiments these Rolls often give additional information like battalion numbers, dates the man served overseas etc. but I'm not sure what additional details (if any) you get with the RFA Rolls. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 2 August , 2006 Share Posted 2 August , 2006 P.S. Re the medal card. Does anyone know what the text in the medal section means? These are references to the actual medal rolls. At the NA, they can be converted to file references and they will contain more information on the awards. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PJKidd Posted 15 April , 2007 Share Posted 15 April , 2007 That is a great photo of your grandmother and probably quite unique as I have never seen or heard of wives or sweethearts being photogtaphed in their partners uniform before. What a handsome couple they are. Notice how the capbadge on both photos is a bit skewed... Here is a picture of the wife of my grandfather's brother. (Sorry it's blurred -- I don't have access to the original photo to make a better copy). I assume she's wearing his uniform (it's much too big!). If anyone can tell me anything about the uniform I would be grateful. He was in the 4th South Midlands (Howitzer) Brigade, I believe, and was killed at the Somme. Thanks in advance, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 15 April , 2007 Share Posted 15 April , 2007 Paul First photo, your Grandfather, cap badge identifies him as an artilleryman and shows him wearing Hospital Blues, he was wounded and hospitalised at some point. Steve The 'Hospital Blues' looks a little like this shorter version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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