Duncan Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 In case anyone is interested, the Guards Regimental Museums (well, Scots Guards anyway) are now charging a fee for WW1 service records. £30 "whether the records are found or not". Bit excessive I thought! Does anyone know if they're also at Kew? Getting a researcher to get them would be cheaper. Duncan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 You might be lucky and find a duplicate record at KEW but the GUARDS records are more complete in terms of they should have a record for nearly every Guardsman. The Coldstream Guards have been charging for sometime (£25 rings a bell and you could only copy certain parts - no personal correspondance) but the Grenadier Guards didnt charge and I used to make a donation. This was a couple of years ago. Trust the Scots to think of money first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 Hello £25 pretty much guarantees you a copy of the papers - could be 1 page or 50 It does vary between Guards regiments - they all have overheads etc Papers (but not all) are at the NA but you need luck on your side to find the ones you want Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 To do a thorough search at Kew would be hours of work (depending on the name you're looking for) with no guarentee of success. Most researchers will charge more than £30 for that, so why is it unreasonable? The MOD charges about the same for unreleased records and only provides summaries. How much are the papers worth to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 To do a thorough search at Kew would be hours of work (depending on the name you're looking for) with no guarentee of success. Most researchers will charge more than £30 for that, so why is it unreasonable? The MOD charges about the same for unreleased records and only provides summaries. How much are the papers worth to you? I think it is more to do with the level of "profit" they are making. Consider that your ancestor served, possibly died serving the regiment and country, and that regiment will now only provide his records for an inflated fee against cost. Personally I am just thankful the records exist but it hardly tallies with the "family" image that a regiment, and particularly the GUARDS regiments regard themselves as a "family" first organistaion, want to portray. I have always believed the donation process best as this does not exclude the less well off from finding out about their fathers, grandfathers, g/grandfathers service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InkyBill Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 A couple of years ago i pulled a Grenadier Guard record and the then man in charge was a Capt Mason. I must have caught him on a good day as he waved the fee. I think he's still in charge so write direct, be nice, and you never know Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Posted 2 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2006 I have always believed the donation process best as this does not exclude the less well off from finding out about their fathers, grandfathers, g/grandfathers service. Yes, I quite agree, what about schools and children researching their family trees, or people (and there are loads of them) for which £30 is a lot of money. £30 is way too much, researchers charge about £15 to look for and send you (if still there) service records. Personally I think they've come up with that figure to put people off from asking - and possibly a touch of snobbery? The New Zealand government records department charged me about £12 for a HUGE file sent all the way from NZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 A couple of years ago i pulled a Grenadier Guard record and the then man in charge was a Capt Mason. I must have caught him on a good day as he waved the fee. I think he's still in charge so write direct, be nice, and you never know Marc Marc, Sadly Capt Mason, who was a real gentleman in every sense of the word, passed away about 2/3 years ago. He ran the GG archives with a Major Eastwood, who was another kind gentleman, and the sort that put family interest before ensuring a fee/donation was paid. I hope he is still there and doing a fine job. When once in their office I overheard someone else talking to Major Eastwood of his (Eastwood's) time as a Drill-Sgt in the RAF Regiment. Whether I heard correctly or not I am not sure but I have always wondered, not so much how he attained rank of Major, but a position with the GUARDS archives and treated with the due respect that GUARDS officers are given. I am sorry this is sad news I have to inform you of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 Yes, I quite agree, what about schools and children researching their family trees, or people (and there are loads of them) for which £30 is a lot of money. £30 is way too much, researchers charge about £15 to look for and send you (if still there) service records. Personally I think they've come up with that figure to put people off from asking - and possibly a touch of snobbery? The New Zealand government records department charged me about £12 for a HUGE file sent all the way from NZ. I havent tired NZ records but the Canadian and Australian charging system really does put us to shame. Two or three years ago three complete service records of many pages plus postage from Australia cost me a lot, lot less than £30. Five records from Canada came to less than £20 I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 I havent tired NZ records but the Canadian and Australian charging system really does put us to shame. Two or three years ago three complete service records of many pages plus postage from Australia cost me a lot, lot less than £30. Five records from Canada came to less than £20 I think. A growing trend. You only have to pause on the regimental museums pages via the MOD website to appreciate that this is a trend spreading like Japanese knotweed - and £25-30 looks like the growing rate. For perspective, it has been suggested that they do not have the staff or time to address the recent avalanche of such enquiries. Fair point, but even the well-established, staffed and funded ones do it. My suspicion (no more than that) is that they have taken their lead from Army records in Glasgow. I think it is also being levied as a disincentive. It reminds me of a parallel story from the mid-70s when Sir Jimmy Saville would ask some ridiculous sum of money - I think it was ten grand, when that WAS money - to do the celebrity round of speeches, supermarket openings etc on the logic that, as he hated doing them, it would scare the majority off, and if someone was prepared to stump up, he'd do it and give the money to charity. I do agree that the fee is too high, but it's endemic with the UK attitude to the public record I have rehearsed here before in comparison with the Dominions. There, they aim to get you as much as possible with a reasonable amount to cover costs. Here, you have to jump through hoops justifying all the way, and then pay a mark up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 The problem is, is that Regimental museums and archives are run on a shoe string budget. The MOD cut back grants to these sort of organisations quite dramatically a few years ago. The continuing interest in family history, as has already been mentioned,can often overwhelm small organisations such as these and the extra income for dealing with enquiries can only be made up by charging the public. Thirty pounds on the face of it may seem excessive, but what would it cost for an individual to travel to the NA for a day, perhaps with an overnight stay for some, and then only to find that the service record no longer exists? If you believe that public records should be available free of charge, lobby your MP's in large numbers, that's the only way that change will come about. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 I asked for the records of my grandfather - an Irish Guardsman - many years ago. I had to prove that I was a direct descendant but it cost me nothing. Unfortunately, the mad major in charge of the service chose to scrawl over the original documents with thick orange felt tip comments such as "You'll be interested in this!". I did not complain since there is no prospect of restoring these precious documents to their original state. I hope that pals who pay £30 get a more professional service. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 researchers charge about £15 to look for and send you (if still there) service records You've got to be joking. If you can find someone who will look up a John Smith for that, I'll give you the £15 just to be able to watch them and laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 Hello A good point - Ive never even bothered looking up the Smiths/Jones etc as its too time consuming - seem to only look for the more unusual names - its even a consideration when buying a medal And if you spend £2000 on a DCM group (not me ) then another £20 for his papers isnt really an issue I dont think Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 These institutions are not only dealing with the families of the men (with the exception of Kentigern House). They also respond to requests from medal dealers who will use the information to embelish the description of their wares. That's fine but why should the Regiments use their scarce resources to bolster their profits. (I'm still smarting from spending a while looking up some information which was recently used to embelish an auctioned item). If you're a relative then surely £30 is a small price to pay. If you're researching a Regiment or war memorial that's when it gets tricky because you could be looking at quite a few £30s. However I still feel that we should have to pay the going rate. I guess the 'profit' is not actually going into someone's pocket anyway. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen D Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 I happily gave a donation to the Grenadiers, after all they've looked after those records for nearly 90 years. They didn't have to did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InkyBill Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 Not quite sure how to quote but in reply to Jonathan, Sorry to hear Capt Mason passed away, he's mentioned in the acknowlegement section of the book i'm writing, (its taking forever a baby came along half way through ) so i'll now include the word late before his name. I spoke to him a couple of times and he really was a nice bloke. Regards Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 Hello Im for one gald the Coldtream Gds kept them - the records have been the only way Ive been able to get some background details I needed And dealers taking advantage ? Possibly, but only if they find out something juicy in the papers or its been a waste of money...and quite a few dont check the basics stilll let alone papers. I got 2 war medals to MM winners last year for the normal price of a BWMs simply due to them not doing enough research. But where do stop if you they to make a living ? Ian I happily gave a donation to the Grenadiers, after all they've looked after those records for nearly 90 years. They didn't have to did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olosangus Posted 4 June , 2006 Share Posted 4 June , 2006 Having failed to find a couple fo Guards service papers at Kew could you tell me where to get in touch with the Museums for the Coldstream and the Scots Guards ? Is it likely that the will have copy service papers if kew doesn't ? Thanks. simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 4 June , 2006 Share Posted 4 June , 2006 Having failed to find a couple fo Guards service papers at Kew could you tell me where to get in touch with the Museums for the Coldstream and the Scots Guards ? Is it likely that the will have copy service papers if kew doesn't ? Thanks. simon Most likely the records will be at Wellington Barracks, which is where you can contact them. Put GUARDS and WELLINGTON BARRACKS in a search engine and you will eventually find contact details. Then you will have choice of writing, phoning emailing etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 4 June , 2006 Share Posted 4 June , 2006 Hello Wellington barracks birdcage walk london sw1e 6hq papers should be there Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olosangus Posted 5 June , 2006 Share Posted 5 June , 2006 Thanks - will try there. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 5 June , 2006 Share Posted 5 June , 2006 With the treasure that lies in Service Records (and the lack of the possibilty of following incorrect assumptions for years), most of us would be delighted to fork out £30 for a perfectly intact service record. I'm sure many others have travelled hither and yon for a possible snippet on their relatives record and the costs that incurs more than slightly outweighs the cost of administration, and indeed storage of these records. And there are worse places to throw your money. Now I don't suppose the Guards have some "mis-sorts" from other regments... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 8 June , 2006 Share Posted 8 June , 2006 Hello Stebie makes a valid point Ive tailored holidays so that i can look people up in the local papers - spent hours looking throught Welsh papers for a Coldstream Sgt and found nothing - and not on the local war memorials either ... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frajohn Posted 8 June , 2006 Share Posted 8 June , 2006 Hi Has anyone any ideas on where else to look, if the records of a Coldstream Guardsman are not at Wellington Barracks? I filled the form, paid the money, then had a phone call from the archivist to say that they could not find the record I was looking for. I know he joined about 1900, and was a civilian by 1924. The last record I have of him and his MIC gives the rank of CSM. Any possible avenues to explore would be most welcome regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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