jerper Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 Hello, Can anyone help me? In my ignorance I,ve been calling this piece of paper a certificate is it in fact a citation? and also may I ask If my grandfather was in the 1st. London Division Signal Company Why is it headed 29th. Division? Thanking you in advance Regards John Pearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfh249 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 It states at the top that your grandfather was 'Royal Engineers attached to the 86th Infantry Brigade HQ', which was part of the 29th Division. This was who he was serving with at the time. Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinH Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 They're generally known as Divisional Certificates. Citations were related to the award of gallantry medals. Regards Gavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerper Posted 9 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2006 It states at the top that your grandfather was 'Royal Engineers attached to the 86th Infantry Brigade HQ', which was part of the 29th Division. This was who he was serving with at the time. Neil. Thanks for that Neil, Is it a Citation? and can you perhaps tell me If the reason was written down in the Divisional Diaries as to why my grandfather was awarded the Military Medal, what division would I look in? Again Many thanks John P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfh249 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 John, Gavin answered the question above, it is a divisional certificate. As for your Grandfathers Military Medal; these were announced in the London Gazette. Your grandfather's was announced in the supplement to the London Gazette published on the 16th November 1917 and it says: 'His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Military Medal for bravery in the field to the undermentioned Ladies, Non-commissioned Officers and men:- 51406 Driver J J Pearl, R.E. (Canning Town, E)' No more information I'm afraid. The London Gazette archive is online as www.gazettes-online.co.uk Judging by the dates the divisional certificate is not connected to the MM. Regards Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeluk007 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 Actually the last post is wrong, the medal was awarded on the 28th Sept 1918, that would mean that the mention in the London Gazette would be after the 28th Sept 1918, so the person who said that the certificate/citation was not conected to the medal is talking rubbish and has obviously read the Gazette date wrong. It actually states in the supplement to the Gazette that it the award is for the Military Medal. As you know my grandfather was awarded the Military Medal the day after your grandfather in the same Division. He was mentioned in the Gazette in 1919. Also I was told from the research officer from the MGC that this is a citation to a GALLANTRY award , if you read the citation it states that it was awarded for Gallant conduct in the field !! Hope this finally clarifys things for you All the best Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerper Posted 9 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2006 [quote name='michaeluk007' date='Apr 9 2006, 05:31 PM' post='432290' Actually the last post is wrong, the medal was awarded on the 28th Sept 1918, that would mean that the mention in the London Gazette would be after the 28th Sept 1918, so the person who said that the certificate/citation was not conected to the medal is talking rubbish and has obviously read the Gazette date wrong. It actually states in the supplement to the Gazette that it the award is for the Military Medal. As you know my grandfather was awarded the Military Medal the day after your grandfather in the same Division. He was mentioned in the Gazette in 1919. Also I was told from the research officer from the MGC that this is a citation to a GALLANTRY award , if you read the citation it states that it was awarded for Gallant conduct in the field !! Hope this finally clarifys things for you All the best Mike Cheers Mike for that,got any ideas what Divisional Diaries to look in ? Keep in touch Regards John P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 Edited my post which was based on the early post and was misleading. Sorry. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeluk007 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 29th Division diaries should hold the key, i havnt got them yet however, i have been told that a major offensive took part from 28th Sept onwards , please see below .. Mike, the only thing I have is the Divisional History, which tells that an offensive started on the 28th, with the divn attacking across the old 3rd Ypres battlefields - Stirling Castle, Inverness Copse, Polygon Wood - on the Gheluvelt Plateau. The attack continued on the 29th and to the beginning of October. Although heavy rain and mud made conditions difficult, the attack was a great success, with over 1,000 prisoners taken on the first day. Certainly somewhat better than 12 months previously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfh249 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 Actually the last post is wrong Yeap, concede that. Wrong J J Pearl R.E.. And I can read dates (just not regimental numbers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeluk007 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 The citation was presented with the Military Medal, at the same time,it was with my grandfather anyway. The brave act would happen, be noted on the citation by the commanding officer, then, the Medal would be awarded for that act. Pretty straight forward really ? I know because I have served in the forces for 20 years myself and been awarded two medals and citations to go with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 The certificate lists him as MM. This would only refer to actions BEFORE the gallant action the certificate was awarded for. Notwithstanding the close dates, I believe that they are for two separate gallant actions. In actions where a certificate and an MM were awarded the certificate was always given first. It looks like he won two gallantry awards very close together: The Military Medal awarded while he was with 1st Divisional Signal Company. London Gazette 14-5-1919: 199060 Spr. Pearl, J. J., 1st D.S. Coy. (East Ham). http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType= and then the Divisional Gallantry Certificate whilst with (or at least attached to) 29th Division. So John is looking for two gallant actions for his grandfather. In my opinion... Steve. P.S. Mike, Neil was trying to help. We all make mistakes. To me your "tone" was a little much. P.P.S. Mike, Just seen your last post. The rules of your own Medal awards have changed since WW1. These Divisional certificates stood apart from the MMs and the certificates were not Citations, per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeluk007 Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 First of all, I was only trying to help to, this guy will become confused, and my tone was one of a helpful one.. I have researched my grandfathers Military Medal with the 29 MGC and I am quite sure that the citation was part of the brave action which lead up to the medal being presented in the first place. In my opionion, what you are talking about is MENTION IN DESPATCHES, which if you are right, would be these divisional certificates ? In that case , I am sure I would have known that. If a Military Medal is ever presented, you would always be given a citation as to how you earn it. I am positive of that. May i also state that my Grandfathers citation/certificate also has MM after his name ? It is identical to the one in the 1st post. Lets not get into an argument about this, after all we are all sons of brave men of the Great War, Best Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinH Posted 9 April , 2006 Share Posted 9 April , 2006 There was no connection with the award on these certificates and either 'Mention in Despatches' or Military Medals. That's not to say that recipients didn't earn MMs or MIDs on another occasion. My Great Grandfather earned a certificate for conspicious bravery with the 7th Division. He was never M.I.D. or awarded a MM. Regards Gavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerper Posted 10 April , 2006 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2006 There was no connection with the award on these certificates and either 'Mention in Despatches' or Military Medals. That's not to say that recipients didn't earn MMs or MIDs on another occasion. My Great Grandfather earned a certificate for conspicious bravery with the 7th Division. He was never M.I.D. or awarded a MM. Regards Gavin Hello Jerper Here, I didn't mean to stir up anything, I can see only 3 mentioned on what I can guess is a discharge certificate and they are :- Military Medal, British War Medal and Victory Medal. Hope this helps Regards John P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffsreg Posted 10 April , 2006 Share Posted 10 April , 2006 First of all, I was only trying to help to, this guy will become confused, and my tone was one of a helpful one.. I have researched my grandfathers Military Medal with the 29 MGC and I am quite sure that the citation was part of the brave action which lead up to the medal being presented in the first place. In my opionion, what you are talking about is MENTION IN DESPATCHES, which if you are right, would be these divisional certificates ? In that case , I am sure I would have known that. If a Military Medal is ever presented, you would always be given a citation as to how you earn it. I am positive of that. May i also state that my Grandfathers citation/certificate also has MM after his name ? It is identical to the one in the 1st post. Lets not get into an argument about this, after all we are all sons of brave men of the Great War, Best Regards Mike Hi Mike, I have to agree with Stebie about your tone, but it is only the line 'so the person who said.... is talking rubbish' everything else you said was correct and just. Neil was only trying to help and you could have maybe put it more diplomatically! Other than that, I am humbled to be conversing with a twice medal awarded individual! good on ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 10 April , 2006 Share Posted 10 April , 2006 The Medal Index Cards for the right J.J. Pearl relate to Joseph James Pearl,{& show two numbers}as stated above there is no direct link between these Divisional/Brigade Certificates & the following award of an MM or similar,they were an award by the said Dvn/Bde to recognise gallantry & sometimes were later rewarded by a further award of a Medal,they are not Citations,as has been stated as they give no detail of any action,only an area{A Citation would describe the events}where events took place & a date,any citation regarding an MM would normally have been in the form of a typed form sent with it,or accompanying it when presented,it would not be a Certificate like this.{I have the official citation for a Gallantry MSM which is typed on a ragged scrap of paper 6" x 2" with a reference code on it & date with full description of the resultant action~it is by no means a certificate} Jerper:~ These Dvn Certificates would not show up on the index Cards{to which you refer ref his Medals}an entry would have been noted in Divisional Records & probably if remembered in his Service Book & records. PS there are no "rubbish" people here {we dont act like that here!} only people who are trying to help,those who pose certain questions,relating to the Great War,it must be remembered that awards in WW1 were a completely different kettle of fish compared with modern awards,where documentation is more prevelant, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 11 April , 2006 Share Posted 11 April , 2006 A while ago I asked if anyone could explain what a 'divisional certificate' was. I got some very helpful replies (though I can't find it / can't work the "search" process at the moment !!) My example referred to passages in letters from my grandfather. About 2 weeks after an action, he was told that he was recommended for a gallantry award. About 1 week after that he wrote that he had just received a certificate from the 'divisional general' congratulating him etc. Two weeks later he wrote that his award had been confirmed and a month after that it appeared in the London Gazette. So, it seemed that his certificate was associated with a recommendation for an award, though before confirmation, so probably wouldn't have mentioned it (needless to say, it has not survived amongst my grandfather's papers). But it was clear that you could get one of these certificates and NOT ever get the award. The Citation (which for some awards were produced in the Lon Gaz) and the Commendation (ie the reason why) are entirely different things. hope this helps Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted 22 April , 2006 Share Posted 22 April , 2006 Have been re reading Laurie Milners Leeds Pals, and in the appendix IV, he mentions Divisional Certificates/Honour Book. Quote:-" From about July 1918, officers and men of the 31st Division who had been recommended for a gallantry award, whether or not it was confirmed,were entered in the Divisional Honour Book, and were entitled to wear the Divisional Honour Badge on the right sleeve, about 2 inches from the shoulder. This in gilt and enamel, consisted of the white and red roses of York and Lancaster respectively, surrounded by a Laurel Wreath." This leads me to two questions, are these Divisional Honour Books kept at the NA? And does any pal have a photo of the 31st Division Honour Badge? Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 25 August , 2007 Share Posted 25 August , 2007 I have a photo in my collection, which I put on the forum about 4 years ago, of a 29th Div man; the following link to the post may be of interest to you....LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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