bcarleton Posted 17 February , 2006 Share Posted 17 February , 2006 Photo is of Pvts. Archie Barley (top right) and twin brother Ronald (top left), probably in England in 1916, prior to the 44th Battalion's departure to France. Archie was killed in a raid days before their unit was engaged at Messines Ridge June 1917. Brother Ronald was badly wounded. I am unsure of who else is in the photograph. The other man in uniform is likely also in the 44th. If any other 44th Battalion followers can identify him (wow) I'd love to know who he is. Any cooments as to why the man sitting is wearing a different uniform cap would also be of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 18 February , 2006 Share Posted 18 February , 2006 Andrew, Tim and Tim are the best bets to help here. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 18 February , 2006 Share Posted 18 February , 2006 Great to see the photo of the Barley brothers. Do you know if the Barley brothers had any other relations in the AIF? If so that may be an option. I'll have a look in my 44th material but don't hold out much hope. Did you end up contacting Neville Browning? He may be able to help with identification in the photo if the other soldier did belong to the 44th. Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcarleton Posted 19 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2006 I did email Neville Browning and he was unable to help (no more copies of book available - Itried some other sources but am still empty handed). The other family members were in the British Army (Harold and Frances Barley) I'm sure the third man is not my grandfather Frances. Here is another photo of the Barley twins that is much more intriguing. Also pictured between them is a likely other member of 44th Btn AIF (all I know is his first name Ralph). The women sitting below are my grandmother and two great aunts (a marriage making this relations due to the death of Archie Barley as my grandmother then married Frances Barley instead). Evidently, the women were munitions workers in London and the middle one later became a Nurse = but not military or BRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 19 February , 2006 Share Posted 19 February , 2006 The bloke seated in the first photograph looks to be a Warrant Officer Class II. Is there any possibility it may be their CSM? Do you know which Company they were in? They chap in the last photograph does appear to have some resemblance to the brothers. There were quite a few other Barleys in the AIF....perhaps one of them? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcarleton Posted 19 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2006 They were in A or C company (I'm not sure which). I have tried to determine if Ralph is a Barley and cannot find a Ralph Barley among the brothers or cousins. I'm sure he was a friend of longstanding to the twin brothers as he is mentioned in their letters. I'm willing to bet he joined up at the same time and probably has a similar service number (1787, 1788). Thanks for the CSM/Warrant lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 No luck with that photo yet. Just had a quick look through the AWM embarkation roll for the name Ralph and came up with the following for the 44th Bn Abercromby, Robert Ralph Service Number: 2660 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 44 Infantry Battalion - 1 to 6 Reinforcements (June-December 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Argyllshire Ship Number: A8 Date of Embarkation: 9/11/1916 Place of Embarkation: Fremantle (I can rule this one out as I have his photo at home and he is a large bloke, mid 30's with a thick mo) Clarke, Ralph Horace Service Number: 266 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 44 Infantry Battalion (June 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Suevic Ship Number: A29 Date of Embarkation: 6/06/1916 Place of Embarkation: Fremantle Returned to Australia 1918 Mountfort, Ralph Osmond Service Number: 1871 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 44 Infantry Battalion - 1 to 6 Reinforcements (June-December 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Miltiades Ship Number: A28 Date of Embarkation: 9/08/1916 Place of Embarkation: Fremantle (This chap was among a group of 44th men that were transferred to the 34th Bn in late 1916 - He returned home 1919) Trotter, Ralph Service Number: 378 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 44 Infantry Battalion (June 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Suevic Ship Number: A29 Date of Embarkation: 6/06/1916 Place of Embarkation: Fremantle Returned to Australia 1918 Brown, Aubrey Ralph Thomas Service Number: 670 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 44 Infantry Battalion (June 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Suevic Ship Number: A29 Date of Embarkation: 6/06/1916 Place of Embarkation: Fremantle Sgt with MSM bu Wars end. Returned to Australia 1919 Oliver, Alfred George Ralph Service Number: 1939 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 44 Infantry Battalion - 1 to 6 Reinforcements (June-December 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Miltiades Ship Number: A28 Date of Embarkation: 9/08/1916 Place of Embarkation: Fremantle Returned home 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 20 February , 2006 Share Posted 20 February , 2006 Just checked the embarkation rolls for the Barley brothers and they went away with the 41st Bn. There was a Ralph in the same reinforcement group as them. Hamilton, Ralph Latham Service Number: 1837 Rank/Calling: Private Unit: 41 Infantry Battalion - 1 to 6 Reinforcements (May-December 1916) Ship Name: HMAT Boorara Ship Number: A42 Date of Embarkation: 16/08/1916 Place of Embarkation: Brisbane Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcarleton Posted 20 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2006 That must be the guy. It matches with some information from my other records: 12 Aug 1916 REB and ARB embarked aboard ship “Boorara” (A42?) from Brisbane, Australia (also listed as 16 Aug). It also says that they were with 41st. I believe you've done it again! Thanks! BTW do we know if he survived the war? I have a letter written by Archie to my grandmother telling about the three of them (his twin and Ralph) being AWOL in London and having a pleasant time sharing a coach with some ladies. His service record indicated he did not pay his 'fine' for the AWOL by the time he died, which resulted in a reduced payment to his brother, named in his will. It was a paltry two pounds I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Ralph Hamilton was transferred to the 3rd Machine Gun Battalion and returned to Australia 20 May 1919. Ronald and Archie's Embarkation Roll here. Interestingly one gave mother and one father as NOK: http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/awm8/23_58_2/pdf/0236.pdf You can order their service papers here: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=3049540 http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=3049549 Hamilton's is available on line: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=4265793 No mention of an AWOL charge. But they did all enlist in Charters Towers, the Barleys on the 27 March 1916. Hamilton's enlistment date is listed as 30 March 1916, however his service papers show he attested on 27 March like the Barleys. Hamilton also transferred to the 44th Bn with the Barleys. Very good chance this is your man I would say. And this document tells you how Archie died. A very sad story. http://www.awm.gov.au/database/1drl428.asp Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 The link for how he died is very sad as you say, Tim. It also gives some idea about trench raids and some of the confusion that must of riegned in the trenches. Regards Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 It would be interesting to know why the Barley's & Hamilton were transferred from thr 41st to 44th Battalion. I wonder if they were part of the replacements for around 60 men of the 44th who were transferred to the 33rd & 34th Battalions. Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Hamilton's service papers advise that he arrived at Plymouth with the 2nd Reinforcements of the 41st Bn on 13 October 1916 and then marched into the 44th Bn on 21 October 1916, before going to France with them on 25 November 1916. There is no mention of the draft in the unit history. Don't know why they seem to have been singled out to go to the 44th Bn, perhaps they volunteered. All the men immediately around them in thier reinforcement group seem to have served with the 41st Bn. The Barley brothers and the incident involving Archie's death is outlined on Page 120 of the unit history. The 41st Bn history notes that the Bn was drawn on in late 1916 to reinforce a Bn already in France: 'Reinforcements for a battalion in France not being sufficient, the 41st battalion was drawn on in order to complete the number, but our first reinforcement, which came with us from Australia, and, later, a draft from the Cyclist Corps, and our second reinforcement, brought us up to strength again'. So perhaps men were diverted to the other Bns of 11 Bde to also bring them up the strength prior to departure for France. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 21 February , 2006 Share Posted 21 February , 2006 Quite expsnsive now...but there is a copy of the 44th Bn History here: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/Search...an&x=0&sortby=2 Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 22 February , 2006 Share Posted 22 February , 2006 I don't know about the rest of you, but my feeling is the unlnown bloke in the first photo looks very similar to the photo of Ralph Hamilton in the second. Considering they were obviously great mates from Qld prior to the war it makes sense that they would all pose together for the photo. I'd also say the older man (out of uniform) is probably a relative. The Red Cross files made for very fascinating reading but did anyone else notice the number of informants who had replied and gave their address as a hospital somewhere - now there's an indictment. Also these accounts pretty definitively state that the Barley bros. and almost certainly Hamilton were in D Company, 15 Platoon. Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 23 February , 2006 Share Posted 23 February , 2006 You could be right there Tim. The soldier in the two photos does look similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 23 February , 2006 Share Posted 23 February , 2006 Come to think of it I tend to agree Tim. I thought I could see a crown on his lower left arm, but now I am pretty sure its just a blemish. Is probably very likely Ralph Hamilton in both photographs....and he just wore a different hat on the day of the photo. There are photos of 15 PL taken at Larkhill in the 44th Bn history. I can't see any of these blokes. I would guess it was taken before they all arrived from the 41st Bn together. There is only 32 men plus PL COMD in the photo, whilst PL establishment was supposed to be 38 pls PL COMD. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcarleton Posted 23 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2006 I did have as a theory that the unknown fellow in the first photo could be Ralph (Hamilton) also, but just couldn't be sure enough. The twins, being my great uncles, I know were born in England. I found a record of Archie Barley going to Australia in 1913. Knowing he and twin were inseparable, I thought it odd that Ronald Barley didn't show up on the same manifest. It is a microfilm in Australia - which I can't get to from lovely Colorado. So, I will so far presume that to be an error of some sort. Further search suggests that these twins went to Australia, having been recruited to work in a youth farming program or something, where they likely met Ralph. I have complete copies of both mens' service records and it clearly says they were previously 'stockmen' in Queensland. As to the AWOL. Service records of twins say "Away Without Leave 31 Oct to 8 Nov 1916". Archie's letter to my grandmother says "...After leaving West Ham we - Don (aka Ronald) Ralph and I managed to get to Waterloo safely without being copped and was congratulating ourselves. Had a good time with three girls in the carriage till they got out at Southampton and we we reached Bournemouth Military Police entered carriage and demanded a show of passes. There was half a dozen so we went quietly to the Bournemouth Civilian Police Barracks where we spent 24 happy hours in a cell cemented floors and Iron bars as windo panes ..was a change to us bot not welcome. Next day our escort arrived and took us back to camp where - after spending 4 days in the detention cell we were tried and sentenced to seven days confinement to barracks and 8 days pay stopped. We got off pretty lucky considering everything. The only mistake we made was in not staying at West Ham longer......sorry we left sunny Queensland now....Ralph as his first introduction to snow and he doesn't admire it..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 23 February , 2006 Share Posted 23 February , 2006 Interesting dates. Is there anything in the letters about being transferred to the 44th Bn? Looks like they scarpered soon after the transfer. Then again....I would too if I was transferred from a Queensland Battalion to a Western Australian one! How about you Andrew? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 Interesting dates. Is there anything in the letters about being transferred to the 44th Bn? Looks like they scarpered soon after the transfer. Then again....I would too if I was transferred from a Queensland Battalion to a Western Australian one! How about you Andrew? Rgds Tim They probably transferred to the 44th after hearing how friendly the West Aussies were If I recall correctly from a letter in my collection, the transfer of the men of the 2nd/44th Reinforcement group to 33rd & 34th Battalion's happened around early to mid november so I might make sense that the lucky queenslanders were tranferred to the 44th after that date. Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 February , 2006 Share Posted 24 February , 2006 Could well have mate! The transfer of 41 men to the 33rd Bn (including PTE Carroll VC) is actually mentioned in the 44th Bn history on p. 34. Unfortunately no news of reinforcements from the 41st after this though. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcarleton Posted 25 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2006 Unfortunately letter is not dated, but events mentioned inletter suggest letter was written in Nov 1916. Return address on letter says "2nd Reinforcements, 41st Battalion AIF, Hurdicott Camp, N. Salisbury, Wilts" In addition, there is a brief mention of unit movement: "...the 41st Battalion is off to France on the 21st of this month and that means to say we will be off by the New Year. Orders came through this morning that no more leave will be granted to us so we have come to the conclusion that we will have to break to be home Xmas (meaning his Mother and Fathers home in East London)..." Service record says they were taken on strength 44th Battalion 28 Oct 1916, which is either an administrative error, or that the transfer or merging of men from the 41st to the 44th was so seamless they retained their identify within the 44th. Record says 'proceed overseas France 25 Nov 16' It does look like these spirited lads were prone to take off on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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