shinglma Posted 29 January , 2006 Share Posted 29 January , 2006 Whilst at Kew last week I had occasion to look at the medal rolls for the above unit. I've attached an example below - the thing I don't understand is the dates against each of the men. If they were given six figure numbers as part of the TF renumbering why are there dates in 1918 against five digit numbers? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 29 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2006 Tom Thanks for such a detailed and helpful reply. I'm brushing up on the territorial force at present and the renumbering has been confusing me. Your explanation is a great help and confirms what i thought to be the case. Would I be right in thinking that the man below him was renumbered to G/72011 because of the affiliation between 3/London and the Royal Fusiliers, and then to 48504 because of the affilliation between 17/London and the Rifle Brigade? This would seem to be the implication of Jock Bruce's article on the main site. If so the penny has dropped! Can we make any assumptions as to embarkation dates in France ie, that Airton's service starts on 25/02/1917 with 1/Yorks LI and Brewster's with 3/London on 01/04/1918? Or put another way if they had first served with the 17/London in France would there be entry with their TF number and dates? Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 29 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2006 Tom Thanks. Strange how straightforward it seems when the confusion lifts! Which is not to say that confusion won't reign with the next exception that proves the rule! Thanks for your help - its much appreciated. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIDMED Posted 29 January , 2006 Share Posted 29 January , 2006 Hello Mike If you’re not familiar with entrenching battalions they are well worth looking into (some fascinating stories), but work back from 21st March 1918. Very best Tom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 29 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2006 Hello Mike If you’re not familiar with entrenching battalions they are well worth looking into (some fascinating stories), but work back from 21st March 1918. Very best Tom... Tom Thanks for the tip - I'll add them to the never-ending list. All the best Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 31 January , 2006 Share Posted 31 January , 2006 (edited) After the advance that ended the war starts in the summer of 1918 your man is eventually posted and returned to the 17th London’s retaining his five digit general service, service number. The 17th London’s are affiliated to the Rifle Brigade. I would disagree with Tom on this point. He didnt start by enlisting in the 17th Londons. He would probably have enlisted in the KOYLI (or possibly another unit, though in fact he may well have gone first into a Training Reserve battalion). The 17th was the last unit he served with, hence the fact that he appears on their rolls. The key is the affiliation between the RB. When he gets transferred from the KOYLI to the RB, this opens up a probability of a tf to the 17th as they are affiliated. The 5 digit number stays the same (as per Jock Bruce's article). I have been through all the BW&VM roll vols of all the London and Middlesex Regts looking for 19th Londons and have found exactly the same pattern as shown in Mike's post. Given the state of manpower in the BEF in 1918 the chances of a man enlisting in the 17th Londons in late 1916 and then ending back up in the 1/17th in October 1918 would have been statistically very remote. I have not come across such an instance of 'boomeranging' out of nearly 1,000 similar cases on my database of 19th Londons. The 19th were affiliated to the Middx. In both rolls I have men who were Derby scheme /conscripted into the Middx who were transferred to the 19th (many as part of a large draft of 604 Middx men in April 1918). In almost all cases they kept their 5 digit Middx number. [A small minority did get a 6 digit 19th London number - I dont know why.] Further cross checking of the Middx men in the Surrey recruitment registers shows that a number had enlisted in Surrey, then went to one of the Training Reserve Battalions (often 23rd TRB) before going to the Middx. I have put some comments about this on the Surrey Recruitment Register thread - click here. Hope this helps... if doesnt confuse you further... Charles edited text in blue Edited 1 February , 2006 by Charles Fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 31 January , 2006 Share Posted 31 January , 2006 (edited) Can we make any assumptions as to embarkation dates in France ie, that Airton's service starts on 25/02/1917 with 1/Yorks LI and Brewster's with 3/London on 01/04/1918? correct Or put another way if they had first served with the 17/London in France would there be entry with their TF number and dates? Correct again, I would expect this. My experience of the London Regts is that they show this level of detail. I have men who are shown as having a little as one day with the 19th in France before being tfd to another unit (usually another London bn). In some cases they are shown as 3/19th. The 3/19th did not actually go overseas - in fact this means that they served for a few days in the base depot (usually 47 Dib IBD) before being posted up the line to another unit. This was discussed awhile ago on this thread. In fact this appears to have happened to the second man shown on your extract. Charles edited text in blue Edited 1 February , 2006 by Charles Fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 Mike, Charles has hit the nail on the head here, the key is the transfer to the RB were the allocated number is given as 48218. The number range 40432 to 58074 donotes Territorials attached to the Corps of the Rifle Brigade and transfers from Training Reserve. The 1/17th and 2/17th served in France, Salonika and Palestine and 3/17th was raised as aTraining Battalion. In 1916 they became a Territorial Battalion of the Rifle Brigade. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 1 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2006 Charles/Andy Thanks for the replies and confirming that I was on the right track. I've been buffing up on MICs and Medal Rolls, thought I had my head round it, and then TF renumbering threw a curve ball! The one thing I still don't understand though is this. Take the example of Albert Brewster below. He lands in France on 01/04/1918 as part of 3/Londons as G/72011 due to the affiliation with the Royal Fusiliers. On 03/04/1918 he is transferred to the 17/Londons and thus is renumbered to 48504 - a Rifle Brigade Number. This is his unit and number until the Armistice. If so - at what point is he assigned the TF number listed on the medal roll - 589123? If its not prior to leaving the UK as Tom suggests, is it assigned after the Armistice or is it held simultaneously? Any thoughts? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 If so - at what point is he assigned the TF number listed on the medal roll - 589123? If its not prior to leaving the UK as Tom suggests, is it assigned after the Armistice or is it held simultaneously? I feel pretty sure that it was assigned after the armistice. This is a very strong hunch. I have quite a lot on the 19th Londons roll who must fall into this category. I believe that it partly reflects the fact that as units were reduced to cadre post 11/11/18 they were often merged before eventual disbandment. I see wierd things like men whose overseas service pre 11/11/18 was entirely with units like the Norfolks and Leicesters yet they appear on the 19th roll. I even have men on the 19th London roll who have 7 digit post 1920 numbers in the 19th London block (i.e. 6722XXX) who definitely didnt serve with the 19th before the armistice, yet they were clearly serving with the 19th in 1921/22 at the time the medals were being issued. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIDMED Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 Hello Mike Oh dear, a Quick look at MIC shows he did not serve first with 17th London’s, Airton and Brewster both have two of the last war time service No's issued to the 17th London Regiment. Needless to say i have only now taken a look. Should have realised as i have done much work on similar as yours in the past with the exception that the troops were all London regiment recruits.... One more point i had said Airton was posted to an Entrenching Battalion, Its possible his battalion was redesignated the 20th Entrenching battalion lock stock and barrel on the 20th March. So not strictly posted … do hope did not throw you off course. Very best Tom p.s P.S Quick thanks to Charles…….Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 2 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2006 I feel pretty sure that it was assigned after the armistice. This is a very strong hunch. Charles Charles From what you say about 19/London men it does sound as though it was post-armistice. Interesting about the seven figure numbers which I have yet to encounter on the medal rolls. Thanks for sharing your experience of 19/London with me. I remember reading a couple of years back about your trawl through the medal rolls and thinking what a long slog it must be!. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinglma Posted 2 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2006 a Quick look at MIC shows he did not serve first with 17th London’s, Airton and Brewster both have two of the last war time service No's issued to the 17th London Regiment No problem - i think I've got my head round it. As I said earlier the 'curve-ball' was understanding the TF affiliations. Thanks to Charles, Andy and yourself the whole thing has dropped in to place. Thanks for your help Regards Mike S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffcole Posted 10 February , 2006 Share Posted 10 February , 2006 Whilst at Kew last week I had occasion to look at the medal rolls for the above unit. I've attached an example below - the thing I don't understand is the dates against each of the men. If they were given six figure numbers as part of the TF renumbering why are there dates in 1918 against five digit numbers? Any thoughts? Hi Shinglma, You didn't happen to get a copy of the record of a Sgt (later Capt) William Wood of the 17th Londons whilst you were at Kew did you? We know he was in at the start and transfered to France in May 1915 but we run out of information in 1916. I would be grateful for any information. Many thanks, Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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