Gunner Bailey Posted 1 December , 2005 Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Can anyone tell me what differences were there between the Mills No 5 and the No 23 apart from the base plug? Was it only the baseplug that was strengthened or was the body of the grenade changed? Was the lever flatter? Looking at the diagrams in Rick Landers book gives no clues. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 1 December , 2005 Share Posted 1 December , 2005 Can anyone tell me what differences were there between the Mills No 5 and the No 23 apart from the base plug? Was it only the baseplug that was strengthened or was the body of the grenade changed? Was the lever flatter? Looking at the diagrams in Rick Landers book gives no clues. Gunner Bailey Differences were as follows: No.23 Mk I As No.5 Mk.I with steel or brass solid base plug. No.23 Mk.II As No.5 Mk.2 but withcorrugated striker lever. Striker deeply slotted at head to facilitate gas escape. No.23 Mk.III Slotted striker, new pattern of plain lever. Base plug provided with hexagon lugs. Filling plug different in position and size. The No.23 was fitted with a 5.5" rod for a range of approximately 80 yds. Hope this helps, Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 2 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2005 Thanks Tony As I suspected the main body was unchanged and it was a plug, lever and rod 'upgrade'. Make you wonder how 'original' all the No 23s are you see on e-bay. Probably No 5s matched up with No 23 plugs. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 2 December , 2005 Share Posted 2 December , 2005 No.23 Mk I As No.5 Mk.I with steel or brass solid base plug. No.23 Mk.II As No.5 Mk.2 but withcorrugated striker lever. Striker deeply slotted at head to facilitate gas escape. No.23 Mk.III Slotted striker, new pattern of plain lever. Base plug provided with hexagon lugs. Filling plug different in position and size. Didn't all the marks have different bodies also, with only the Mk.II having the same body as the No.5? The Mk.I was slightly more tapered at the bottom and the Mk.III resembled the body of the No.36 grenade. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 2 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2005 Dave That's part of the puzzle. Ive seen a variety of Mills body shapes. Some with deep grooves others quite shallow grooves. It all seemed to depend on the manufacturer. Looking at the mills' in my collection two seem identical and another one is much smoother. As Mills Bombs were produced by dozens of factories I don't know if they were supplies with common moulds or whether they made their own. I would have thought the 23's would have been smoother so they exited the discharger cup more easily but that does not seem to be the case. Also looking at my Mills' they all seem to have the same depth of base thread suggesting a common specification. I suppose these are Edwardian engeneering differences. Do you know any website / book that had detailed drawings on the three marks of No 23? Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 2 December , 2005 Share Posted 2 December , 2005 (edited) The body on a Mills No.5 and a Mills No.23 is different. It is difficult to see without a side by side comparison but the No.5 is rounder with a different shoulder profile. In addtion some Mills grooves were cast and some were machined - this creates different styles of 'grooving'. The No.23 MkIII hand/rifle grenade was not designed for use with a cup discharger as such, more a 'holder' - the true cup discharger was that designed for the No.36 MKI which used virtually the same body. Specifically with regard to Great War grenades there are a number of volumes you need to look out for. Delhomme 'Grenades de la Grande Guerre' - really my bible, three volumes to cover French/British/German were originaly produced in tiny runs and virtually impossible to find. A fascimilie edition is frequently available. The Grenade Recognition Manual - Volume 2 - British and commonwealth by Darryl Lynn. Available from Darryl's website. An Introduction to British Grenades by Skennerton. Grenades and their uses - AIF manual. A reprint of the original 1916 (I believe) manual by R. Law. Weapons of the trench war 1914 - 1918 by Anthony Saunders. See Amazon. Identification manual of British grenades by Rick Landers. There is also the Treatise on Ammunintion reprint by Naval and Military. More general ordnance and another bible but very expensive. The other books to look out for with regard to ordnance are any by Ian Hogg - he has published a great deal on the subject. Some more previous discussion on Mills here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...e=mills+grenade And this is a search for general grenade discussion: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...ighlite=grenade Dave - only one more post to go... Edited 2 December , 2005 by Giles Poilu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 December , 2005 Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Dave - only one more post to go... Shame it wasn't "with a bang"!!! (though, I suppose a grenade thread could be classified as such!! ) Ah, well, "alles ist uber" I suppose. ("ongoings" excepted). Dave. ("shruggy shoulders 'smiley' " - couldn't find one to match ,so I had to describe!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 3 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Thanks Giles Great content and really useful. I've got the Landers book and will look out for the others. I had thought there were some Mills body differences but could see 'more slender' No 5s as well. BUT of course if people are swapping base plugs, especially where grenages are being dug up and restored, then identiies become mixed. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 3 December , 2005 Share Posted 3 December , 2005 Dave, And you didn't even make Major... 2% of all the forum's posts and you're still a crappy Lieutenant-General! Well done mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 4 December , 2005 Share Posted 4 December , 2005 Gunner Dave is correct - there was a natural progression for the No.5, 23 and 36 Mills bombs, with slight changes to the appearance. The original No.5's appear to have been machined rather than cast as were the later ones, and there were dozens of factories making the No.5 with an increasing number for the 23 and 36. There were several distinctive differences between the No.5 depending on the manufacturer. (There is a Mills bomb in the museum at Fromelles which I would give my eye teeth to own because the cuttings between the segments do not meet at all the corners and I have never seen these variation before). I maintain there was only the Mark I version of the No.5 whereas the No.23 when through Marks I - III (the Mark I being basically a No.5 with internal modifications and the Mark III becoming the No.36). Any markings on base plugs, safety levers, etc cannot be relied on as to the No. of grenade as many have been swopped around over the latter years. If you work on the basis that if the overall shape of the grenade has a rounded bottom it is a No.5 or early No.23 and if it is tapered it is a late No.23 or No.36. The ears at the top also vary dependent upon No. and Mark. Hope this helps Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi Geoff Iv'e not visited the museum at Fromelles, but it's on my list. Thansk for the useful information. I've got three mills bombs and one is machined the other two have been moulded. I'm sure there must hav been a body shape change as well but no drawings I've seen have conclusively shown it. Maybe I've got the wrong drawings. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 I will try and find some pictures to illustrate the difference. As I say above the 5 is more rounded with a different design to the shoulder and filler plug area. The No.23 MkIII and No.36 designations are a completely different shape and very distinctive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Having said that it's easier to refer you to Dave Sampson's site: http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 5 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hi Giles I've looked at Dave's site for ages and can't see the body differences. There always seems to be a similarity and difference between the 5s and the 23s. Dave has some great photos but the body shapes seen to vary from slender to rounded in both 5s and 23s. Eternally puzzed by this Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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