Welch or Welsh

[Aurel Sercu]

I know some members will advise : use the Search engine ! But I have, and just can't find the answer. (When I enter "Welch" or "spelling" too many pages (dozens) appear )

I am writing an article for our village magazine (Boezinge, north of Ypres) about the Goumier Farm bunker (often wrongly spelled as Gournier). I know what I want to know about this construction, but I am bothered by a 'detail' : the commemorative plaque.

A problem is : What is the plaque doing there ? For the area where the 38th (Welsh) Div. advanced on 31st July 1917 was 600 m from there. (It was the 51st Division who captured the bunker.) So strictly spoken it should not be there. Though I have a few thoughts about this, this is not really the problem I have in mind. (Also : nothing proves that the plaque is related to 31 July 1917.)

The issue I have in mind is : Nobody seems to know who put it there. And : when ? Somewhere (Major Holt) I read : maybe a local farmer did.. (Which would explain the "error".) Personally I find that a bit hard to believe.

But as to the time when it was put there, I just thought that somehow part of the answer may be in the spelling difference WELCH / WELSH.

Unfortunately I don't remember the details, though this issue was dealt with a long time ago in a different thread. (But as I said : the Search machine does not help me out.) I seem to remember though that during the war the spelling was WELCH, that this was changed after war (early 1920s ?). But then the question that rises is : Did the units with WELCH in their name follow this altered new spelling ? Or maybe only later?

So basically my very specific question is : Seeing that on the plaque the spelling is WELCH, can any conclsuions be drawn related to the period the plaque was made ?

(It seems to me that someone (who ? when ?) later tampered with the C and tried to alter it into S, but not successfully. However, I am not sure of that. And I do not have a good 'zoomable' close-up. Besides, this is irrelevant to my question.)

What linguist (or other) can help me ?

Aurel

[Alan_J]

Aurel,

I thought the "Welch" / "Welsh" spelling applied to the Royal Wel(s/c)h Fusiliers, not the 38th Welsh Division. Robert Graves refers to the spelling in "Goodbye to All That", and I'm sure someone can say when the spelling was changed.

Alan

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Aurel

The History of 38th Div edited by Lt.-Col. Munby, and first printed in 1920 spells it Welsh.

I think it was placed there by mistake myself but Two battalions of the Welsh Div, the 10th & 15th Welsh, were placed at the disposal of the 20th Div, after they had captured Langemarck on 16th August. Could these two battalions have been stationed at Goumier Farm, and suffered from the heavy shelling of the back areas ?. Also the 38th Div. relieved the 20th Div. on the 19th & 20th August, their reserves could have been in this area ? and again all possiblity of heavy shelling of back area ?

Annette

[tonycad]

During WW1 both the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and the Welsh Regiment were as spelled. Both were changed in 1921 to the older spelling of 'Welch' which was reflected in the wartime and post-war cap badgea. The shoulder badges were RWF and Welch respectively after the war.

T ny

[tonycad]

PS

Perhaps the plaque was altered to the historically correct Welsh,as they were during the war.

T ny

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Annette, Alan and Tony.

Annette, as to what the plaque is doing there on that bunker, I'll give it some thoughts, and reply later in this thread.

Tony,

So : WW1 Welsh / 1921 : Welch.

The only possible conclusion from this, is that the plaque dates from 1921 or later. (Which does not make us any wiser. Post 1921 could be expected, and is not really narrowing down.)

Yet, somehow I think that later, some years after 1921, Welch was changed again into Welsh. Is that correct ? (Isn't that what the spelling is now, also in names of units ?) If so : when was that change ?

You think that the not very skillful and manual alteration on the plaque (if there is an alteration) from Welch to Welsh was done because the spelling Welsh was the correct one in the war. Possible. Maybe it could also be because at the time the man altered it, the spelling had become Welsh again ?

Confusing, isn't it ?

Aurel

[Muerrisch]

You came to the right place for the spelling issue. A quote from one of my books, Duty Done.

A visitor to the old Western Front, pausing to look at headstones or memorials to the missing, might be sufficiently observant to notice that two spellings, Welch and Welsh, coexist. The old English spelling was Welch, but coexisted with Welsh, so that for example in 1727 there is the ‘King’s Own Royal Regiment of Welch Fusiliers’. Again, in 1768 the spelling was most commonly Welch, but by 1815, the year of Waterloo, Welsh was the preferred version and retained this official status until 1920. Thus, during the Great War and for a short time afterwards, all official publications such as the Army List, Orders of Battle and ODIGW together with SDIGW unequivocally used Welsh [and not just for RWF, but also the Welsh Regiment]. Regimental badges and Colours also bore this spelling.

None of which explains why two versions should be found on headstones. Members of the Regiment clung to the old Welch for all internal purposes, for correspondence and indeed for the official War Diary, so that there is little doubt that soldiers fought and in many cases died as Royal Welch Fusiliers and might well have wished to be commemorated as such. And so commemorated they were, in the first instance, an arrangement formalised by Army Order 56 of 1920 which approved the change to Welch for the Regiment and also the Welch Regiment. Reasonably enough the CWGC adopted this spelling and so the great majority of headstones etc bear a badge with Welch and the soldier’s regiment engraved in full in the same style. However, since 1985 the CWGC policy [and it is quoted here exactly] ‘has been that as headstones need replacement, they are replaced by ones bearing Welsh.’ The policy was adopted after the so-called miss-spelling was brought to their attention.

The Regiment is aware of this state of affairs. It seems less than satisfactory that for many years to come the two spellings will coexist, often on neighbouring graves. More importantly, it does those who died some small disservice.

A sense of humour is required of the historian, so that one notes with glee that the official letter from the War Office, dated 27 January 1920 and announcing the change to Welch to take effect at once is addressed to the Colonel of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and that when the Major commanding the Depôt forwarded a copy of the letter to the Colonel in charge of Records, No 4 District, on 1 February 1920, he signed himself as Commanding Depôt Royal Welsh Fusiliers. An exchange to savour.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, LB. This is clarifying indeed.

Just this.

As far as I know, now the official spelling is Welsh. Is that correct ?

If so, that means that, since in or after 1920 the official spelling became Welch, that some time later it was changed into Welsh again.

When was that ?

And was that also for the names of the Welch (Welsh) Regiment and Royal Welch (Welsh) Fusiliers ?

(I am asking because if I know the year or period of the change C > S, then I know that the plaque must have put there before that year or period.)

Aurel

[Muerrisch]

The Regiment, the Army List, Colours, badges, the lot, used WELCH from 1920. That is still the position, although the mergers of this year have managed Welch and Welsh in the same title! CWGC in its wisdom is going over to Welsh for 1914- 18 casualties.

[Aurel Sercu]

LB,

Thanks.

(I had seen that in 'normal' language it is Welsh nowadays (don't know since when), and had thought that the army units had switched to Welsh again too. But apparently not.)

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

CWGC in its wisdom is going over to Welsh for 1914- 18 casualties.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CWGC has a specific instruction from MoD to use the spelling 'Welsh' for casualties up to 29.02.20 and 'Welch' thereafter.

[Muerrisch]

Curious. CWGC in writing to me on the subject adopted the stance that it was their decision: and surely CWGC should not take orders from a British Ministry as CWGC is a commonwealth body?

May I have a direct reference to the MoD policy, please? The date of the change is curious, as War Office policy was 'from immediate effect' 27 January 1920.

[Terry Denham]

LB

CWGC takes direction from each Commonwealth member as applicable via the appropriate CWGC local office and government departments on matters of style, nomenclature etc - and always has done (ie from the UK Foreign Office on matters of country names etc). This issue is a UK one and so the deciding body is the MoD. I assume what CWGC means is that their decision is based upon an instruction/advice from MoD.

Their remit is only to record what information they have been given by said bodies.

I checked the 'Welsh' issue with CWGC only a few months ago and they have undertaken a check of their database to ensure their compliance with the MoD request. This is as informed to me in writing by CWGC at the time. I remember that I had a note of an earlier date (hence my query to them) - probably the same as you record.

[Muerrisch]

Terry, many thanks. My manifest annoyance [and, I hope, understandable annoyance ]with the appearance of Welsh vs Welch on adjoining headstones or monuments should not in any way obscure my sincere admiration of the work of CWGC.

The sight of Captain Grumpy on his high horse is not a pretty one, but I fear the battle is lost.

[tonycad]

Aurel,

Further to this thread, we tried to find the Gourmier Farm Bunker on a recent visit to the Salient.

In the expected location, we did see the top of a bunker immediately next to a farm, and before a left angle corner in the road. We could only see the top of the bunker as it was surrounded by high maize, and it was unapproachable from the back, because of a ditch and pond.

Were we in the right place.

Thanks to Terry Denham and langley baston for clarifying the CWGC position on Welch and Welsh, with the latter to mark WW1 graves. All the RWF and WR graves we saw on a recent visit were Welch, which jarred a little as not being historically correct.

Tony

[koyli]

Hi Aurel,

To make it a bit more difficult you will be pleased to learn that

the Welsh Guards never took the title WELCH after WW1 and

are still up to this date known as the WELSH guards.

Cheers

Lawry

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Tony and Lawry (the latter for making things more difficult ! )

Tony,

I'm not sure it was the Goumier Farm bunker you saw. I'll post a photo here right after this, and a link to a website that shows more pics.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Tony,

Was this the one you saw ? (Or did not see ? )

I took this and the following photo on June 11. As you can see : the maize was quite low at the time. (But or Flemish maize grows fast !)

Goumier Farm bunker is indeed some 50 meters (160 ft.) from the road.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

And a second pic, showing the northeast side (the previous was southwest and southeast side).

Mark the later built British (double) construction, covering what used to be the German back side (entrance), built after the bunker was captured .

For more pics of the bunker :

http://www.wo1.be/ned/database/dbDetail.as...=49&ItemID=6176

(There are 15 pics, also of the interior. Click on the word "volgende" on top of the photo.)

Aurel

[tonycad]

Dear Aurel,

Thank you for your quick respose

From the size of the bunker, and its proximity to the road, I do not think, unfortunately, that the bunker we visited was that at Gourmier Farm.

Thank you, anyway.

I will try and retrace our route from the map, and see if I can identify the bunker we actually tried to visit!

T ny

[Aurel Sercu]

From the size of the bunker, and its proximity to the road, I do not think, unfortunately, that the bunker we visited was that at Gourmier Farm.

I will try and retrace our route from the map, and see if I can identify the bunker we actually   tried to visit!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tony, yes, please do. I am interested because I am writing a series of articles for our local village magazine about Boezinge bunkers. Do you have a photo of the bunker you saw, half hidden by the maize ? (Maybe it's one I have not discovered yet myself !

In the article I wrote for our magazine about the Goumier Farm bunker (not on line yet, but it will be soon) I made a plan (route sketch) where it can be found. I'll post it in a following posting.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Tony,

The promised location of Goumier Farm bunker.

(The two dotted lines with "Dorpsgrens" mean : "Boundary of the village (Boezinge) before and after 1971". There were boundary corrections in 1971 when villages in the Ypres area were slighly rearranged.)

Aurel

[tonycad]

Dear Aurel,

Wtih regard to Gourmier Farm bunker, having traced our route I am sure we passed it - twice!

What I thought was the road in one of you photographs, turned out to be the edge of a ploughed field.

I must have been confused, and I am sorry If I confused you.

Thank you.

Tony

[Aurel Sercu]

Tony,

No need to be sorry. The bunker, though quite large, is not easy to see. (50 meters from the road, and a road that takes an unusual course there I must say.)

And it happened to me too, with another bunker, at Zuidschote (adjacent village). I must have passed it 67 times with my bike, (at not more than 3 meters !) and yet, had never noticed it !

Aurel