the german Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Hello, may be this is of interest for some of the forum- members. In the records of the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, I saw an english soldier, who is buried in the "Kameradengrab" on the german cemetery of Langemark. It was very surprising and remarkable for me, to find an english soldier among all the thousands of german names. The entry says: Albert Carhil date of death= 4.11.1918 1. / 4 Royal North Lanc. Regt. Is there a possibility to get some more informations about this man? I would like to know, where he came from. Thank you! Hinrich P.S. I saw, I made a mistake in the topic description, sorry. The spelling in the records is Carhil with only one " l ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Hinrich, I think you have cleared up a small mystery. This man is , I think, Private Albert CARLILL . He is known to the CWGC and is in "Soldiers Died" under this spelling. The CWGC should be told where is remains now are. He is commemorated on a Kipling Memorial at Cement House Cemetery and his grave is reported as lost but originally at Louvain Communal Cemetery. That said , the Kipling Memorial stone may in fact obliquely refer to his being buried at the German Cem. but this fact is not explicitly stated in his Debt of Honour Register entry. He was a Yorkshireman aged 19 from Brough , Yorkshire and enlisted in Hull and was in the West Riding Regiment before the Loyal North Lancs. Perhaps, the CWGC have looked at the VDK records in past years but the slight error in spelling his name and perhaps the Royal/Loyal error would have made it difficult to immediately find him. No such problems in the computer age ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Well done Hinrich. Another problem solved. I have taken the liberty of reporting this to CWGC as I believe it to be an important discovery. I'll report what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Thanks for that Terry. As you say, each small correction could be most important to a future pilgrim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the german Posted 29 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Hello Ian and Terry, thank you both for the informations! He was a young guy..... I found Brough on an internet-map near the city of Hull. I guess this must be the right one. Terry, a good idea reporting this to the CWGC. I think, they are much more interested in these things as our Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsräberfürsorge is nowadays! Of course, I would like to know if they can use the information. You find the VDK-page here: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/conte...5C1BCB8E6B3E011 Hinrich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Hinrich, Yes, Brough near Hull is certainly where he came from. It is nice to now know where he rests in dignity with other fine men who served bravely during the Great War. Nationalities seem to matter so little in these circumstances. May they all rest in peace together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Hinrich/Ian CWGC say that they have known about this casualty's location for a while. In fact, there are two of them. The other is - Pte Leonard Henry Lockley S/43486 4 Bn, Seaforth Highlanders Died 30.10.18 At the moment he has a Special Memorial in Jemappes Communal Cemetery. CWGC say that they are currently discussing with VDK how best to commemorate these two men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Excellent news Terry. Perhaps in the meantime the CWGC could adjust the info in the register - assuming this is not already in hand and waiting for the periodic update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Ian I presume they will wait until they come a decision to avoid doing it twice. It sounds as though we could see two CWGC headstones in Langemark shortly. Reminder - When the new site goes online, there will be no periodic updates as it will be using the live database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Terry, I hope they won't do that! I think the bright white British stones wouldn't fit in the atmosphere... I hope they'll find an esthetically acceptable solution. I think it's a shame the allies decided to remove the graves of their men from the German cemeteries in the 1920s in the first place... Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 July , 2003 Share Posted 29 July , 2003 Jan I am sure that whatever CWGC and VDK decide, it will be in complete harmony with the rest of the cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the german Posted 30 July , 2003 Author Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Terry, I would be happy to know, how the story ends. So please give me a hint, if you know more. Did I get you right, that the CWGC and the VDK are already in contact about this case for some time? Unfortunately, I am not fluently reading and writing English, so that I sometimes have to demand, sorry :-) May be your today`s inquiry regarding Albert Carlill will speed up the case a little bit. In my opinion, two traditional white British stones between all the dark German plates on the ground would not disturb the atmosphere. They could be an interesting special symbol, that all the fallen soldiers were human and equal in death, no matter what nationality they had! You have mentioned a second english soldier in Langemark`s Kameradengrab. I also found him, the original entry is: Lookley L. 30.10.1918 Unit= C.E.S.R.A. The spelling of the name is different, too. Hinrich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Yes, Hinrich, you understood correctly. CWGC and VDK are discussing the best form of commemoration for these two men. I do not know the details of their discussion but, because CWGC are talking to VDK, I can only assume that they are talking about some form of commemoration in Langemark Cemetery itself. Maybe they will agree on this or maybe they won't. Time will tell. I am sure that neither organisation would do anything to spoil the atmosphere of a cemetery. Personally, I agree with you that two British Special Memorial headstones against a hedge would not look out of place and would reinforce the idea of mutual sacrifice on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 There would always be the option of granite stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Terry, I've come up with a few questions. 1. Do these two men have no commemoration stone on another (CWGC) cemetery? There are quite a few CWGC cemeteries where there are a few commemoration headstones around a Duhallow Block, rememembering British soldiers whose graves were on a German cemetery but were lost after the war. 2. Are these men whose graves were lost not also in the "Kameradengrab"? Since they were buried in a German cemetery but not found back, they must be buried as "unknown German soldiers" in the Kameradengrab in the 1950's when the original German cemeteries were concentrated? Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Jan 1. Yes, as mentioned earlier in the thread, these two men have commemorations in Cement House Cemetery and Jemappes Communal Cemetery. As their graves were believed to have been destroyed, they both have Special Memorial headstones. However, if CWGC now know that their graves actually exist elsewhere they are obliged to commemorate them at that location if possible. If it were to prove impossible to commemorate them in Langemark for any reason, they should at least replace their headstones with Special Memorials stating the true burial location. 2. I do not know how they came to be in Langemark in the first place but presumably there was some German record at the time of them being British as their names appear on the VDK list and they are now acknowledged by both CWGC and VDK to be there. How they ended up here rather than in a British cemetery is a mystery for someone to solve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Well, in the 1920s the remains of the Allied war dead were taken from the German cemeteries. However some of these weren't found back at the place where they should be. Since in the 1950s all unidentifiable remaining remains from the former German cemeteries were concentrated to the Kameradengrab in Langemark, all the British remains that were once on these German cemeteries should be in the Kameradengrab now, so all the British soldiers that weren't found back should be there. Why these two are mentioned especially in the register of the Kameradengrab is a mystery, because all others that weren't found back should be mentioned too... So there are probably around 100 (?Terry, do you have an idea about the amount of British soldiers not found back on the German cemeteries with the special memorial headstone?) British soldiers buried in Langemarck. The register of the Kameradengrab is not correct also: some of the soldiers mentioned there have also a known grave elsewhere and part of the soldiers are missing soldiers who are believed to be possibly buried there. The only soldiers that are in the Kameradengrab for sure are the ones from the original mass grave in Langemark Nord that are mentioned on the right hand side in the entrance building. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Jan I don't know that figure. It would require someone checking the details of every Special Memorial and Duhallow Block to compile a number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 Hi Terry: I'm not suggesting that this be done, but would any consideration be given to removing the remains of these to men to a CWGC cemetery? Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 I would think the chances of that are less than nil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Missinne Posted 30 July , 2003 Share Posted 30 July , 2003 For some more information concerning Private ALBERT CARLILL see on The Great War in Flanders Fields (> Database > persons) : Private Albert Carlill. Private ALBERT CARLILL has his Special memorial on Cement House Cemetery and has his name on panel 10 at the Mass grave on the German Military Cemetery Langemark with the name (also in the register) "Carhil Albert + 4.11.1918 - 1/4 Royal North Lancash. Rgt. K.-Grab" Click on the arrows to see more pictures (Special memorial on Cement House Cemetery and panel 10 at the mass grave) Jan, The 6313 names on the wooden panels of the entrance building are the names of all the identified soldiers of the original German Cemetery. Each name on the wooden panels can be found on a grave stone outside, for example Offiziersstellvertreter WÜSTENEY KARL. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 31 July , 2003 Share Posted 31 July , 2003 Hi Terry: I'm not suggesting that this be done, but would any consideration be given to removing the remains of these to men to a CWGC cemetery? Garth Why do the British want to have apart cemeteries? The Germans buried their own and allied dead together in cemeteries and even mass graves under the motto 'Im Leben ein Feind im Tode vereint' (enemies alive but united in death). The French and British authorities decided to remove all their dead from the German cemeteries in the 1920s and now because there are some British soldiers in the Kameradengrab (a few among the remains of many thousand), some people want them taken out? I don't understand why they were removed from the original cemeteries in the first place. Perhaps one of you could tell me why this is so important. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 31 July , 2003 Share Posted 31 July , 2003 Jan, I totally agree that it would now be inappropriate to consider removing any remains for reasons of nationality. As you say they are now comrades where they lie and should be honoured as such. My concern is that the records are amended to record the strong likelihood that they lie in the German Cemetery in Langemark. Personally I am not too concerned about memorials there, although I realise this is a mandatory responsibility for the CWGC. That said, I am sure a suitable memorial can be designed to respect the special tone of Langemark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 31 July , 2003 Share Posted 31 July , 2003 Why do the British want to have apart cemeteries? The Germans buried their own and allied dead together in cemeteries and even mass graves under the motto 'Im Leben ein Feind im Tode vereint' (enemies alive but united in death). The French and British authorities decided to remove all their dead from the German cemeteries in the 1920s and now because there are some British soldiers in the Kameradengrab (a few among the remains of many thousand), some people want them taken out? I don't understand why they were removed from the original cemeteries in the first place. Perhaps one of you could tell me why this is so important. Hi Jan: I prefaced my question by stating "I'm not suggesting that this be done" which is how I feel about these two graves. I have absolutely no problems with these two men remaining where they are now. As long as ANY soldier's grave is properly marked, maintained, and they are remembered with dignity it doesn't really matter what cemetery their buried in. I asked Terry "would any consideration be given to removing the remains of these two [spelling correction] men to a CWGC cemetery?" because I don't know what the CWGC's policy is regarding moving remains from one cemetery to another. I also don't know what the CWGC's policy is regarding concentrating Commonwealth graves. Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently. Regards, Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 July , 2003 Share Posted 31 July , 2003 CWGC do not move graves these days except in very exceptional cases - and this would not be one of them as they are already lying in a suitable and safe location which is not under threat. Most of the concentrations took place in the 1920s and 30s when attitudes were different. Most of the moves were made for economic reasons to enable cemeteries to be well cared for. Also the feeling at the time (note - at the time - not now) amongst the general public was that comrades from the same army should rest together rather than with the recent enemy. Some concentrations continued into the 1950s with the odd one occuring later but usually only when a site had to be cleared for some reason or became unmaintainable. There are many cemeteries which contain German and other ex-enemy war graves. There were very many in the UK until it was decided by the German authorities to move most of the German/Austrian graves to Cannock Chase German Military Cemetery - all nations have the tendancy to want to be together. The case in question here is only one of suitable commemoration in accordance with CWGC's obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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