13th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment

[yellow]

Hi,

Im trying to find out as much information I can about my grandfathers friend who he worked with on Lincolnshires railways. This man won the DCM at Ypres??? on the 26/9/1917.

He was:

15305 Sgt. Samual Johnson Rawding DCM 13th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment. London Gazette 4th March 1918. Formally 4909 3/4th Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.

Can anyone provide me with the war diary entry for the action in which Samual won his DCM and the extract from the regimental history detailing the action?

I have tried my local library in an attempt to obtain the history......unfortunately the national library of the UK does not own a copy. I have tried the NA Archives online, they have not got round to scanning the Battalion War Diary.

If anyone could shed some light on this I would very appreciate it as you would be solving a 100 year family mystery.........was Samuals DCM won at Hill 60 like he told my Grandfather?

Many Thanks,

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The announcement of his DCM was in the London Gazette of 4-3-1918 (published 1-3-1918) which you have probably already found?

15305 Sjt. S. Rawding, Suss. R. (Lincoln).

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in command of his platoon after his officer was killed. He captured the objective and immediately reorganised and endeavoured to gain touch with both flanks.

Although wounded early in the operations he remained at duty, and only went to the aid post when ordered to do so.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

The citations at this point in time do not give much away.

The delay on DCMs was initially (1914, 1915 and 1916) about 2 months from the date of the action. However, by 1918 the dates of DCM gazette entries were starting to slip quite badly. I would say a 5 month delay would not be out of the question, and "feels" about right (by the end of 1918, April 1918 awards were in December gazettes, for example)

Of course, the war diaries may just yield some more info.

Apologies if I'm covering ground you've already covered,

Steve.

[yellow]

Hi Steve,

Many thanks for your helpful reply.

The wound that is mentioned in the citation........Samual jumped into a German occupied trench where by a German pushed a bayonet through his arm. Very nasty

The second mystery is who was the officer mentioned in the citation as being killed. Samual always told my Gandfather is was Lt Knight or Night?............I have searched and searched for this man but I cannot find him. I can only think that some how Samual forgot his name.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

You could get someone to do a SDGW CDRom (I think it includes officers) check for the end of September/beginning of October 1917 for the 13th Royal Sussex to narrow down the list?

One of the names might even be close to Knight...

Steve.

[yellow]

Thats a great idea. I dont have the CD myself

I know that the officer in question was killed by a coal box shell which exploded as soon as the men went over the top.

Its just a real shame Ive got all that detail committed to memory but no names or places to go with it?

Steve.

[Bob Coulson]

Checked Officers Died, no name coming close to Knight for the Royal Sussex for those dates.

Bob.

[Bob Coulson]

Just checked With a Poppy And A Prayer and the closest I can find is a 2nd Lt S E Nott of the 13th Royal Sussex who was KIA on September 9th.

Don't know if this is of any use to you.

Bob.

[Sue Light]

Steve

I have the battalion war diary for that day, which says nothing - in fact it says:

'Battalion attacked at 5.50am. and captured all objectives and about 40 prisoners.'

I remember having a look for any seperate operation orders or reports, and not finding any - there might be some out of order in their box. However, I do also have the relevant bit from the diary of the 1st Battalion, Cambridgeshire Regiment, who were alongside the 13th Royal Sussex. It gives a good account of the day - if you would like a transcription [as a Word doc.] send me an email.

Regards

Sue

[yellow]

I must thank everyone for the oustanding response I have had here.

Sue,

In the war diary is there any suggestion as to where the attack was made on that date?

Perhaps in a earlier entry.......perhaps it states moved in to line on so and so date.

Thanks.

Steve.

[Sue Light]

Steve

The attack was at Tower Hamlets. These are the trench map references from the 1st Battalion Cambridgeshire Regt. diary:

'Assembly completed on the line J.26.b.45.80 to J.20.d.73.23'

and they attacked towards Joist Redoubt. The 13th Royal Sussex were on their left, although at some point during the day a 400 yard gap developed between the two.

Sue

[Paul Reed]

You might find this part of my website of interest:

http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/13th_ro...ex_regiment.htm

When I am back at my main PC I will see if I have anything on this man.

[yellow]

Many more super replies

I now know exactly where the DCM was won. Thats exactly what information I was looking for.

So according to the citation Samual must of tried to of made contact with the Cambridge Regiment? Or do think perhaps another company of his own Battalion?

If I am correct an officer would of had to of recommended Samual for his DCM and be an eye witness. As the officer was killed I`m left scratching my head as to how that might of come about?

Thanks again for all your help.

Steve.

[Chris]

Hi Yellow

Just seen this interesting thread. Mainly of interest because i have been researching another of this batch of Lincs to Sussex transferred men. Pte. 5061 Percy Foster 3/5th Lincs; then Pte. 15408 Royal Sussex. He won the MM just southwest of St Julien between 31st July and 2nd August 1917 for his work as a runner; whilst with the 12th Royal Sussex. He was captured later in the war and became a POW in Germany.

Would your info agree with the following. Approx 200+ men from the Lincs Territorials (both 4th and 5th and mainly 3rd line), joined the Royal Sussex around the end of July, beginning of August 1916, all originally going to the 12th Royal Sussex.

Chris

[yellow]

Hi Chris,

This topic is indeed deserving a thread of its own. I certainly dont know the exact number and thats another reason why I`m looking for a copy of the regimental history.

I can see how you would come to the figure of 200+ by using the MIC's. I make 230 give or take a few men from regular, service battalions and officers. You cannot be far of.

When my Grandfather asked Samual why the Sussex, his reply was this:

All NCO's who had not been to France were transfered to other Regiments to make up the Battalions Strength.

So there you have it from a vets mouth.

12th Sussex......in the same Div as the Chums.

Steve.

P.S. What makes Sam special is that he was presented with his DCM by the King at Buckingham Palace which is very rare for a DCM winner.......someone must of thought he was special!

[yellow]

My Grandad Walter Storr far left and Samual Far right.

You know I really would of loved to of go something about Sam in the book Chris but my research was far from complete. Thats why I`m asking the forum to help out.

Steve.

[Guest Toby V]

I have a note of a 2nd Lt. Reginald George William Gillham commissioned on 27.6.17, killed on 26 September 1917 near Tower Hamlets with 13 Battalion. Nothing like 'Knight', but the dates are right...

[TheMasseyShaw]

Hello,

Also killed in action on 26 September 1917 with the 13th Royal Sussex was Second Lieutenant William George SIVEWRIGHT.

Knight......Wright.....?

Just a passing thought !

Regards,

Nick

[KevinBattle]

Although a "rave from the grave" as an old topic, I'd be tempted to agree with Nick

Based on the assumption that the officer had to be killed either during or perhaps just before, or even dying shortly after from wounds, the list od Royal Sussex officers isn't very long.

NAYLOR H C 25 24/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 3rd Bn. attd. 11th Bn. Belgium VOORMEZEELE ENCLOSURES NO.1 AND NO.2 I. K. 7. SON OF JOHN NAYLOR, OF FULHAM, LONDON; HUSBAND OF MARIAN ELIZABETH NAYLOR, OF "FAIRHOLME," DROVE RD., SWINDON.

CHARMAN JOHN EWART J E 19 25/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 1st/4th Bn. Belgium HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY I. D. 17. SON OF JOHN AND CAROLINE CHARMAN, OF 13, ST. L.EONARD'S RD., HORSHAM, SUSSEX.

LANGDALE HAROLD CARTHEW H C 25 26/09/1917 Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 13th Bn. Belgium TYNE COT MEMORIAL Panel 86 to 88. SON OF ARTHUR CARTHEW LANGDALE AND ANNIE SUSAN LANGDALE, OF HEATHFIELD HOUSE, HEATHFIELD TOWER, SUSSEX.

GILLHAM REGINALD GEORGE WILLIAM R G W 22 26/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 13th Bn. Belgium TYNE COT MEMORIAL Panel 86 to 88. SON OF MR. G. H. AND MRS. J. GILLHAM, OF THE LAURELS, SOUTH LEIGH RD., EMSWORTH, HANTS.

BOTTING WILLIAM RALPH W R 22 25/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment "B" Coy. 3rd Bn. attd. 11th Bn. Belgium TYNE COT MEMORIAL Panel 86 to 88. SON OF THE LATE DR. HERBERT WILLIAM BOTTING, MUS. DOC., F.R.C.O., L.R.A.M., AND MRS. BOTTING, OF BRIGHTON. F.R.C.O.

MARTIN GEORGE JOHNSTON G J 26/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 13th Bn. Belgium TYNE COT MEMORIAL Panel 86 to 88.

DAVISON EDMUND E 24/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 3rd Bn. attd. 11th Bn. Belgium TYNE COT MEMORIAL Panel 86 to 88.

SIVEWRIGHT WILLIAM GEORGE W G 26/09/1917 Second Lieutenant Royal Sussex Regiment 13th Bn. Belgium TYNE COT MEMORIAL Panel 86 to 88.

Name: William George Sivewright. Death Date: 26 Sep 1917. Rank: 2 Lieutenant (T)

Regiment: Royal Sussex Regiment. Type of Casualty: Killed in action. Comments: Attached to 13th Bn.

If we work on a 13th Bn officer, themn there's only Gillham and Sivewright.

As Nick remarks, Knight and Sivewright over the passage of time could get confused, Sivewright is so unusual that someone tried to make a more "sensible" name from the sound (aologies in advance to any Sivewrights reading this!)

Incidentally, the Medal Rolls throw up some additional information..

Name: William George Sivewright. Rank: Lance Corporal. Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal

Regiment or Corps: Royal Sussex Regiment. Regimental Number: G/10645. Previous Units: G/10645 8th Bn R Suss. Private. (but mentions Commissioned)

and

Name: W C Sivewright (mistranscribed - it is W G in the Roll) Rank: 2nd Lieutenant

Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal. Regiment or Corps: Royal Sussex Regiment (notes Missing 26/9/17).

which may then be

Name: William George Sivewright. Registration Year: 1894. Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun. Registration district: Islington

1901 Census:

Name: William G Sivewright. Age: 7. Birth Year: abt 1894

Father: Charles Sivewright. Mother: Cassandra Sivewright

Birth Place: Holloway, Civil Parish: Battersea, London.

Charles Sivewright 43; Cassandra Sivewright 37; Charles Sivewright 9; William G Sivewright 7; Frank Sivewright 3

1911 Census:

Name: William Sivewright. Age in 1911: 17. Birth Year: abt 1894. Birth Place: London, Battersea

Street address: 38 Wilson Street, Battersea SW. Marital Status: Single. Occupation: INSURANCE CLERK

Registration district: Wandsworth. Registration District Number: 26. North West Battersea. ED, institution, or vessel: 30. Piece: 2218.

Charles Sivewright 53; Cassandra Sivewright 46; Charles Sivewright 19; William Sivewright 17; Frank Sivewright 12; Amy Sivewright 8.

In 1901 his father was a general labourer, by 1911 he was a solicitors clerk, so the family had risen through the lower to middle classes, quite an achievement, similar to gaining a commission. Many Insurance Companies keep records of their staff, it might be worth an enquiry at Lloyds or other amjor Insurance Groups to see if they have this unusual surname in their records that might add more.

[TheMasseyShaw]

Hi Kevin,

That's a comprehensive list !

Do you have an interest in the Royal Sussex Regiment ?

Nick

[KevinBattle]

Hi, not especially except I have retired to East Sussex (clue in username) so there are a lot from this area that served.

Colonel Lowndes was nearby at Herstmonceux, raising the Southdowns Battalions (11th, 12th and 13th Royal Sussex).