wilkokcl Posted 20 August , 2005 Share Posted 20 August , 2005 This photograph shows my great grandfather and i'm hoping somebody can tell me more about any information it may contain. He is third from the right and why is his cap badge different to the others? i'm new to this research game so any clues as to the insignia, badges, possible location or date would be much appreciated. His medal card says: Name: Gilbert G. Hayward Corps: R. Fus Pte 3547 Corps: MGC 249508 Theatre: (1) Entry: 25-9-15 Victory Medal & 1915 star and written under that what could be "Dwp Sub" (?) Thanks, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 20 August , 2005 Share Posted 20 August , 2005 Hi Hes Cap bagde is Royal Fus the rest are all Machine Gun Corps. The MGC was created in 1915 and disbanded in 1922. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 20 August , 2005 Share Posted 20 August , 2005 Hi Your G/G was in France on 25th Sept 1915. No1 in Theatre is France hes unit was the Royal Fusiliers as for the Batt it may say it on the MIC. The medals are 1915 Star British War Medal (BWM), Victory Medal ( VM). at some point he transfer to the MGC. if you can post the medal card it may give us some more info. cheers themonsstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilkokcl Posted 20 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2005 The website says P and not 2: writing on the original is not clear. I'll scan the original in when I've worked out how to reduce the size a bit! Medal card of Hayward, Gilbert G Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Fusiliers 3547 Private Machine Gun Corps P49508 Private Date 1914-1920 Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilkokcl Posted 20 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2005 Here is a scan of his medal card - does that help? Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 August , 2005 Share Posted 20 August , 2005 Hi Hes Cap bagde is Royal Fus the rest are all Machine Gun Corps. The MGC was created in 1915 and disbanded in 1922. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK then, I can READ he was RF but I challenge anyone to tell from the cap badge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 20 August , 2005 Share Posted 20 August , 2005 Hi Hes Cap bagde is Royal Fus the rest are all Machine Gun Corps. The MGC was created in 1915 and disbanded in 1922. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK then, I can READ he was RF but I challenge anyone to tell from the cap badge! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi hes MIC says he was RF the bagde is a Grenade with Flames two and two R Fus Bagde what would you say it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 20 August , 2005 Share Posted 20 August , 2005 Mark, Apart from the cap badges being MGC, will notice the funny shoulder title, which is actually the letters "MGC" in brass over the letter "I", which stood for the Infantry branch of the Corps. The same title can also be found worn above the letters "C"(Cavalry); "M"(Motors) and "H"(Heavy Branch). Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilkokcl Posted 22 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 August , 2005 This is the other photo, which seems to have been taken on the same day. Gilbert Hayward is visible to the right of the tree, again wearing a different cap badge to all the others. So to all you experts out there: 1. What is this group: a company/division/batallion/regiment etc? 2. How does this fit in with the 1st picture, which seems to be a sub-group of the larger group? Many thanks, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandsonMichael Posted 22 August , 2005 Share Posted 22 August , 2005 If I'm correct he was already with the M.G.C when he entered France on 25-9-15, as his 1915 Star is registered on the M.G.C. roll..... With the service number of 49508 this would mean he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps around July / August 1916 So how can you be so sure about the date he joined the M.G.C Steve? Or am I being dim here.... Cheers, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Named to the Fusiliers but on the MGC Roll Just going by his Service Number gives you a very good idea when he joined the MGC eg 10000 = approx Jan 1916, 25000 = approx March 1916 etc Steve <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Steve Any chance of you posting the full sequence of numbers and the approximate dates to which these apply? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandsonMichael Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Thanks Steve for you explanation. I second Paul's question, that would be very helpful to lot's of us. I'm really intrigued as my Grandfather was transferred from the Essex Regiment to the M.G.C. I have no idea when, all I know is that he was C.Q.M.S. in 1917 in Grantham and a/W.O. Cl II when Class Z.A.R. on 8-3-19. His M.G.C. service number was 8652. Can you give me a rough idea when he might have joined the M.G.C.? I've been trying to figure this out for ages..... Cheers, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 He can't have been in the MGC on 25 Sep 15 as the Corps was not established for another three weeks, and precious few got to France in time to qualify for the 14-15 Star as MGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Hi Hes Cap bagde is Royal Fus the rest are all Machine Gun Corps. The MGC was created in 1915 and disbanded in 1922. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OK then, I can READ he was RF but I challenge anyone to tell from the cap badge! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mark, The badge is definitely Royal Fusiliers. The pattern of the flames on the grenade differs to all other fusilier regiments. Are you sure his regimental number is 49508 and not 149508 or similar? I would recommend getting someone to check the Medal Rolls themselves to confirm his number. Unfortunately you will probably have difficulty in ascertaining which company or battalion of the MGC he was in. I believe the medal rolls for the MGC were completed via number for the corps, so a particular number cannot usually be matched to a given sub-unit. There was generally no rhyme or reason as to where men of a certain number block went. Men of two consecutive numbers may well have ended up in different MGC units altogether. The MGC initially started out as companies attached to each infantry brigade and later on these companies were amalgamated into battalions attached to each infantry division. In some cases, particularly when the MGC units were formed, men were recruited from a particular infantry brigade or division to fill positions in the attached MGC unit. For example if your man was in the 1st Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers (who were in the 17th Infantry Brigade of the 6th Infantry Division) he may have ended up in the 17th Machine Gun Company and later the 6th Machine Gun Battalion. Unfortunately many men were merely transferred as reinforcements from their infantry regiments to unrelated MGC units. Many were just posted where they were needed. Hope this helps. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandsonMichael Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Steve, Thanks for your answer. He can't have been in the MGC on 25 Sep 15 as the Corps was not established for another three weeks, and precious few got to France in time to qualify for the 14-15 Star as MGC. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right....I turned the question I meant to ask around, dumb. He should be mentioned on the Royal Fusiliers roll for his 1915 medal. Steve, were the soldiers with the numbers ranging from 4000 to 10000 all transferred on one day? I thought there were several different categories either transferred directly to the M.G.C. or stayed with their original units or volunteered, etc. I have studied the ‘number crunching’ on the Forum extensively and found that some numbers in the range you mention for the 1st January 1916 are said to be transferred later, for instance in February 1916...could you please be more specific? Thanks, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 23 August , 2005 Share Posted 23 August , 2005 Steve, Thanks for your answer. Right....I turned the question I meant to ask around, dumb. He should be mentioned on the Royal Fusiliers roll for his 1915 medal. Steve, were the soldiers with the numbers ranging from 4000 to 10000 all transferred on one day? I thought there were several different categories either transferred directly to the M.G.C. or stayed with their original units or volunteered, etc. I have studied the ‘number crunching’ on the Forum extensively and found that some numbers in the range you mention for the 1st January 1916 are said to be transferred later, for instance in February 1916...could you please be more specific? Thanks, Michael <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But he is on the MGC 1914/15 Star Roll as detailed on the MIC. Would this mean it was merely issued from the MGC and named to the Royal Fusiliers.....or would it be named MGC? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Impossible to be named MGC - I have not devoted any time to ascertaining how many MGC men qualified for the Star as 'MGC', but I've never seen one. Although units were in training, via a combination of wholesale transfer of home service TF and SR units' MG sections, and the gradual 'trickle back' from France of MG sections, away from notes I do not believe that many - if any - formed units were in France to qualify. In this individual case, I go with Steve's crunching of the number database, which has been highly reliable in the past, establishing him as a 1916 transferee. I have some number groups by association (usually via comparison with gallantry awards and particularly the Territorial Force War Medal roll) but this is not hard and fast. The Star will therefore be named RF - I think it is a case of bureaucratic tidiness that men who qualified for the 14-15 but transferred to the Corps were administered under the MGC roll. The one question I can't answer is why he's got his RF cap badge on in the midst of all these crossed Vickers. It would imply that he was a one-off replacement; but why didn't he get given a badge at Grantham? Unless this picture IS at Grantham pre-deployment. Right head now spinning with ponderables. I'll cease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Cheers Phil, Very interesting. Just seemed a bit strange that his Star was administered by the MGC? I am pretty sure of all men I have researched have actually appeared on the Medal Roll of the regiment/corps they qualified for the Star with? Looking at the Star Medal Rolls should be interesting as the men transferring in at the same time should hopefully have their respective regiments listed? I have also checked SDGW for the number range and there does not appear to be any discernable pattern linking him by number with a large block RF transfer there. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandsonMichael Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 My head is spinning as well, will get back later on the number crunching... Crazy coincidence but I just came across this on my computer, which bears out what Staffs just said about bureaucratic tidyness??? I'm not convinced about the 1914 Star though as both examples refer to the 1915 Star Medal. More later. Cheers, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 August , 2005 Share Posted 24 August , 2005 Michael/Phil, Disregard my last. I was obviously barking up the wrong tree here. I have looked at some of the MIC cards on the site and, in the event a man was transferred from Corps to Corps, the receiving Corps has actually administered the Star in each case. Obviously the receiving unit did the administration...and arranged the naming to the mans previous unit. Should the previous unit actually be detailed in the 1915 Star Roll then...or just on the MIC? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Mark/Guys, O.K. Process of elimination here. Your mans number was NOT 49508. There is already a man with this number - a Hibbert.....and he appears to have been in a group of former Queens men who were transferred into the MGC. The following is interesting: 149503 ex KOSB. 149504 ex SR, KOSB. 149505 ex KOSB. 149506 ex KOSB. 149507 ex RAMC. 149508 NO LISTING 149509 ex Cheshire, LC and NF. 149510 ex Cheshire, LC and NF. 149511 ex NF. 149512 ex DLI. 149513 ex DLI. I would guess your mans number is actually 149508. The Medal Rolls should confirm this. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandsonMichael Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Phil: The Star will therefore be named RF - I think it is a case of bureaucratic tidiness that men who qualified for the 14-15 but transferred to the Corps were administered under the MGC roll. Tim: I would guess your mans number is actually 149508. The Medal Rolls should confirm this. I agree with Tim, I thought it might be a 1 and not a P. P for what? I have the medal rolls of my Grandfather and his 1914 Star & clasp are mentioned on the roll of the 2/Essex Regiment, his original Battalion. The British War & Victory Medals are mentioned on the roll of the M.G.C. His previous service number, rank and Regiment are also mentioned on this roll. So I don’t really understand what’s going on here..... Do you think there was a certain date after which the burocrats decided to register all medals via the M.G.C. rolls? Cheers, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 My uncle was originally East Surrey and transferred to the MGC - his medals are stamped MGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 25 August , 2005 Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Hello all, Think I could put the cat among the pidgons here as I asked my mate to drop Pte Hayward into his MGC database to see what came up and he landed in among lads from other home counties units i.e. R.W.Surreys, 2/4th Queens and R.W.Kents, who also have original four figur numbers. The M.G.Coy of those that were known was actually 160th Bde M.G.Coy,53rd Div. Not saying he's a 100% right, but he is good!!! Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilkokcl Posted 25 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2005 Hello, Many thanks for all the detective work and replies - I haven't replied recently due to being in over my head and not knowing what to say! So i'm leaving it to you experts out there but watching with much interest...... I've been trying to think if there is anything I know about my ggfather's service that could give any clues as to where he was. These are the few snippets I know (so if anyone can read anything in to this, great): 1. His brother Edward was in the 24th Batt Royal Fusiliers and died on the 13th Nov 1916. i have a separate post in the "Soldiers" section which provides more info. Forum members say they think Edward died in the battle of the Ancre - what I think was the last battle of the Somme. Relevance? Edward wrote a letter the day before he died in 1916 saying "Gilbert and I have reveived a parcel from.....". That suggests Gilbert was in the same place as Edward, or certainly in contact with him. 2. Gilbert rode a horse at some point in the war and it was killed in battle. Gilbert was riding it at the time but survived (why did machine gunners ride horses?). Not a lot to go on, but maybe someone can read something in to that. Happy hunting, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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