246th West Riding RFA - Any Experts?

[PBI Friday]

Hello there Pals,

Does anyone know if any other awards were given to ORs during the incident on 3rd September 1916 leading to William Barnsley Allen's VC? I know Allen was with the RAMC, but he was attached to 246th West Riding RFA at the time and his award was won while helping men from this unit.

Any info would be most appreciated.

David.

[Tony Lund]

If these units are attached to the 49th West Riding Division, it’s attack on the Pope’s Nose at Thiepval took place on the 3rd of September 1916. It was Huddersfield’s second worst day of the whole war for deaths; and I would imagine the same applies to Halifax. Their territorials were in the same Brigade of the 49th Division as the Huddersfield men. I don’t know about the artillery but it was clearly a bad day to be in the 49th.

[PBI Friday]

Thanks for the replies guys,

Simon, you've probably seen Captain Allen's VC citation, but since you're an artillery buff I thought I'd post it here just to remind us all of how unpleasant falling shells can be when your'e on the 'wrong end'!!

'Captain William Barnsley Allen, M.C., M.B., Royal Army Medical Corps

For most conspicuous bravery and devotion to duty. When gun detachments were unloading H.E. ammunition from wagons which had just come up, the enemy suddenly started to shell the battery position. The first shell fell on one of the limbers, exploded the ammunition and caused several casualties. Captain Allen saw the occurrence and at once, with utter disregard of danger, ran straight across the open, under heavy shell fire, commenced dressing the wounded, and undoubtedly by his promptness saved many of them from bleeding to death. He was himself hit four times during the first hour. By pieces of shells, one of which fractured two of his ribs, but he never even mentioned this at the time, and coolly went on with his work until the last man was dressed and safely removed. He then went over to another battery and tended a wounded officer. It was only when this was done that he returned to his dug-out and reported his own injury.'

Sourced directly from, The London Gazette, issue29802, 24th October 1916.

Incidentally, this citation appears directly preceeding a VC citation to a certain 'Captain Noel Godfrey Chavasse', I wonder who he was then??

My original impetus for this post comes as a result of some Medal Index Cards I got from the PRO, one of them to a Bombardier 1779 Harold Hustler.... both his MIC (somewhat unusually) and MM card state he was with the 246th West Riding RFA and was gazetted 9th December 1916.... so you can guess what I was thinking.... a long shot, but a link perhaps to the VC winner, but the gazette coming later. I had a check on FreeBMD for a match to the name Harold Hustler and came up with a potential fit for June 1897 born in Bradford, so that looks quite promising as a lead.

Anyway, as Tony mentioned this was a pretty horrific time for the West Ridings... I remember reading something about trenches held (I think) by a battalion of DoW's. The trenches were only half dug and couldnt properly be finished due to the intensity and accuracy of artillery barrages coming from the other side.. the trenches were unaffectionatley known as 'The Maze' and 'Jacob's Ladder' ... can't remember where I read this so correct me if I'm wrong!!

Cheers guys,

Hope I haven't rambled on for too long!!!

[Simon R]

Try Dick Flory (as rflory) on the forum, he's the fount of all knowledge as far as awards to RFA are concerned.

[Simon R]

His database includes all awards to RFA RHA RGA 14-18, talk about Herculean effort, but he's definitely the man as far as this is concerned.

Can't find any D245 refs. to this event, none in history, might be in war diary but haven't looked, none in personal diaries, can't find any casualties on this date for them.

[PBI Friday]

Simon,

I will have to dig out the MIC for Hustler as I seem to remember it had his Company listed as well. I have a fair bit of stuff for the RA and RMLI buffs out there that I'd like to post on the site at some stage, but I'll have to get a scanner first!!

Thanks again for the responses and suggestions.

Dave.

[kerry]

I'm looking at D246 and D245 from Otley and Ilkley (West Yorks/ Riding) respectively (Howitzers btys.). They are my pet units, I'll dig around and see what I can find.

Do you have details of his VC? If I can find anything of use, we should do a swap.

3rd Sept.. is this still Authuille area, or have they moved up to Mouquet Farm? Offhand, I have not heard of ORs receiving other awards, but let me have a look and I'll get back to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simon,

would you know if these were the ancestors of the RA whose badge is now worn by our ACF C Coy cadets from that area? Please see my post under :Western Front entitled Yorkshire regiments in the Ypres Salient.

Thanks

Kerry

[rflory]

Sorry to be so late in answering this question but it has taken some time to research all the MMs and DCMs to 246 Brigade, RFA TF:

There are three groups of MMs gazetted to the MM recipients from 246th Brigade, RFA TF in the period, 3 Sep 16 to 31 Dec 16:

London Gazette, 11 Nov 1916

951 Bdr W Oldfield, RFA

1206 Gnr H Heslewood, RFA

6158 Gnr A B Rushworth, RFA

61128 Gnr J W Tankard, RFA

London Gazette, 16 Nov 1916

2291 Gnr H Gregson, RFA

1629 Gnr A Muscroft, RFA

3455 Gnr W F Petty, RFA

1114 Gnr C Thornton, RFA

6057 Gnr A S Todd, RFA

London Gazette, 9 Dec 1916

1079 Bdr L Mellor, RFA

1117 Bdr F P Firth, RFA (Bar to MM)

1779 Gnr H Hustler, RFA

Because there are no citations for MMs it is very difficult to determine whether any of these MMs were given for the VC action of 3 Sep 1916.

DCMs, though, are a different story. Citations are available for most DCMs and in checking the DCMs awarded to men of 246th Brigade, RFA two DCMs awarded in the London Gazette of 20 Oct 1916 are definitely for the action in which Capt Allen received his VC:

DCM to 1325 Dvr. H. Leatham, RFA

"For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty as Medical Officer's orderly. On several occasions he displayed the greatest pluck when assisting the Medical Officer, under heavy fire. He has shown throughout an utter disregard of danger, distinguished himself by remaining behind to assist in carrying the wounded to a place of safety, though he had already been subjected to a tremendous strain and was considerably shaken."

DCM to 1155 Sjt. A. E. Marshall, RFA

"For conspicuous gallantry during operations. When the battery was heavily shelled he ran from gun-pit to gun-pit dragging the wounded to safety and assisting the Medical Officer. He twice ran straight across the open field in order to fetch stretchers as quickly as possible.

Regards. Dick

[PBI Friday]

Dick,

Thanks! That's really great stuff you have posted.

I thought the citation for Leatham was quite poignant, ".....though he had already been subjected to a tremendous strain and was considerably shaken." A man doing his duty but obviously suffering the effects of the terrible shelling and sights he was exposed to. I do hope he got over it in time.

Looks like the 246th had a really busy time of it... for so many men to have received gallantry awards in such a short time gives some indication of what they were dealing with on a daily basis.

I'm really glad you posted all those names... it brings them back out into the open for us all to see and say a silent 'thanks'.

Dave.

[PBI Friday]

Simon,

Hope the headaches better!!

I had a look at Hustler's MM Index Card over the weekend, and there is a letter "B/" before his unit details. This would fit with him being in "B" batterry and not "D" as per your posted finidings.

Thanks again for your trouble.

David.

[Simon R]

B bty 246th RFA - smashing, I'll have a dig around and see if I've any refs. to this lot.

[Simon R]

Kerry,

Hope this helps.

49th (1st West Riding) Div. TF

1/4th West Riding (Howitzer) bde. RFA TF

formed 1st April 1908, embodied 4th August 1914

: 1/10th (West Riding) (Howitzer) bty @ Otley

(ex F Coy 2nd West Riding Yorks. Royal Engineers Volunteers)

: 1/11th (WR) (H) bty @ Ilkley

(ex H Coy 2nd WR RE Volunteers)

: 1/4th (WR) (H) bde Ammunition Column @ Burley in Wharfedale

(ex C Coy 3rd Volunteer btn. Duke of Wellingtons)

: D bty. 164th bde RFA transferred to 1/4th WR from 32nd Div. 16th Feb 1916

Batteries detached 1st May 1916

: 1/10th became D bty. 246th (1/2nd West Riding) bde. RFA (Bradford)

: 1/11th became D bty. 245th (1/1st West Riding) bde. RFA (Leeds)

: 1/4th (WR) Ammo. Col. became part of 49th Divisional Ammo. Col.

: D164 became D bty. 247th (1/3rd West Riding) RFA (Sheffield)

1/4th WR Howitzer bde. redesignated 248th bde. RFA from elements of other three divisional artillery bdes. - it therefore loses its association with Wharfedale and is broken up 18th Oct. 1916. Otley/Ilkley etc units carry on as btys. not bdes.

[/i

7th Feb 1920 batteries reconstituted.

: 1/10th @ Otley transferred to 70th (West Riding) Bde. RFA as 280th Field Bty.

: 1/11th @ Ilkley transferred to 69th (West Riding) Bde. RFA as ???th Field Bty.

1939 brigades mobilised

: 70th re-equipped with 18/25lb QF guns, to France June 1940 only to return from

Dunkirk 3 weeks later with the 52nd (Scottish Lowland) Div. Managed to bring its

guns back across the channel.

: 70th subsequently transferred to 46th (North Midlands) Div.

1945 70th bde. renumbered 270th bde

1955 270th and 584th Light AA regt. combined to form 370th (WR) Field Regt.

1960 370th renumbered 270th (WR) Field Regt.

1961 270th combined with 269th (WR) Field Regt. (Leeds artillery) to form 249th

WR Field Regt.

1967 Loses guns and becomes Home Defence Unit

1969 Regt. disbanded

Regt. succeeded by 2 volunteer units

: 272nd (WR) Artillery Field Support Squadron RE (Volunteers)

: 'A' (WR Artillery) Coy. 3rd btn. Yorkshire Volunteers.

The rest is silence I'm afraid, but in any event, units recruiting for artillery btys from this area are effectively the descendants of the first howitzer btys. formed out of Haldanes reforms of the RE 1908.

n.b. the area produced a sister Div. to the 49th, the 62nd (2nd WR) Div. which contained 2nd line arty units from Otley and Ilkley - 2/10th & 2/11th which became D310th and D311th respectively.

[kerry]

Dear Simon,

many thanks for all your hard work in pulling all this together - I really do appreciate the info and will pass this on to C Coy in West Yorkshire to see if they can make the link. I will use this info to identify C Coy's RA ancestors and take the research from there. I have e-maled you seperately regarding cadet research but this info certainly is very helpful.

Many thanks again

Kerry

[Simon R]

PBI,

It's not B battery - checked the war diary, it's actually C246.

'3rd Sept. 1916

5.10am Bombardment started + programmed followed.

5.20am Lt.Col Middleton RFA TF liason officer with 146 IB reported that everything

started up to time.

continues with increasing confusion evident to-

12.30pm Serious casualties in c/246. Teams ran up with a limber and an ammo.

wagon and stood just behind the gun pits where the enemy suddenly

shelled the battery blew up the limber and killed 6 outright and severely

wounded 14 others leaving only 1 sergt. 1 fitter 1 bombardier + 1 corpl.

3 of the 14 wounded afterwards died of wounds.

2nd Lt. Verity 2/Lt Berwick wounded. Capt. W.B. Allen RAMC behaved

with the greatest gallantry.'

Position was taken over by C/241, bty. taken out of line.

'7th Sept. 1916

9pm Sent in recommendation of Capt. Allen RAMC T for a VC + recommendations for reward of men of C/246 + Bomb. Leatham'

Since I now know where each bty. was, I should be able (through the alchemy of grid refs. and trench maps) be able to pinpoint the spot where all this happened.

More to follow...

[PBI Friday]

Simon,

I take my hat off to you!!!! I'm not worthy !!!

I'll have to post you a copy of the MICs for Hustler so you can have a look for yourself... I only have photocopied copies, so I guess that means taking a picture with my digital camera and uploading them to the site (I don't have a scanner!!).

The reason why I plumped for Hustler as B battery was because on the MM MIC it states 'B/246 West Riding' .... Anyway, as I said before, I am 99% sure that I have a match for him from FreeBMD indicating he was born (and probably, though not necessarily joined) in Bradford. Hustler might not be one of your Ilkey or Otley boys, but it seems certain he would have rubbed shoulders with them!!

Thank you so much for all the input so far..... this thread has me hooked!!!!

Cheers,

David.

[Simon R]

PBI

Relevant refs. from war diary 246th bde. RFA re: 3rd Sept.

'C246 in Left Group to directly support attack of left infantry bde. from R19c 15.45 to River Ancre' (Appendix R, Lt. Col E.N. Whitley orders to artillery)

(Left Group consisting of B/240, C/240, B/242 (6 guns), A/246, B/246, C/246 and B248 - note this leaves out the howitzer btys. which had their own separate Group and do not appear in this particular section of the war diary. By the by really, but there you go).

C246 and B248 are 'Liason batteries especially responsible for Right and Left battalions of Liason Infantry Brigade' (Appendix R)

'They will join in the preliminary bombardment but on its conclusion will endeavour to give the utmost support to their own battalions, watching particularly the flanks and any places from which machine gun fire is coming' (Appendix R)

So the plan is:

C246 & B248 on wire cutting before attack

C246 & B248 join bombardment

C246 & B248 'will be ready to send forward officers to act as liason officers with

their respective battalions when the attack has succeeded'

C246 & B248 in close support to infantry

C246 at Q28 b 3.3 i.e. just North of MESNIL on BEAUMONT 57D SE1+2 trench map.

Gun position just outside of old enclosures surrounding village - Observation Post further up Mesnil ridge along BROCKS BENEFIT trenches. JACOBS LADDER was the steep communication trench from Mesnil down through the old strip lynchets to HAMEL.

C246 on liason with 6th WEST YORKS

Support given throughout morning to this unit, fires on German counter attack 6.55 a.m., various activities to 10.15 a.m. 'GOC 146 inf. bde. asks for barrage on german front line.... rate of fire 1 round from bty every 4 minutes' - continues this pattern up to 12.30p.m. when 'serious casualties in C/246' occur as per previous post.

i.e. regular rate of fire, regular gun flash & fire pattern now makes it easier for Germans to observe bty. - counter battery file by Germans effectively silences C/246 and it comes out of the line.

That's enough now...

[PBI Friday]

Hi Simon!

No, you didn't kill me with the veritable artillery bombardment of info!! Have been snowed under with work. I will have to get back to the old folks place this coming weekend and did out the MIC....Same old story, I know! Anyway, I have to have something to show you, as so far, you and Dick have done more typing on this post than me and I'm starting to feel guilty!!

Thanks again for your help!!

David.

[Guest MichaelW]

hello David

have just seen this site. I have a DCM to 1155 Sjt AE (Albert Edward) Marshall c./246th By., R.F.A., T. F.

You have his dcm details and it was won for 3.9.1916. He was killed Ypres 1917 - October 2. what I have found so far - born Dewsbury, enlisted Heckmondwike. No service papers survived.

Michael

[Guest MichaelW]

Where was he buried?

VLAMERTINGHE NEW MILITARY CEMETERY, date 02/10/1917. He was 21.

[Joe Leatham]

Sorry if this is late to reply to a "cold" thread, but I just found this topic and had to add something to it. I am happy to report that the Dvr H. Leatham who was awarded the DCM was my great uncle Herbert Leatham, who did survive the war, emigrated to the US in the 1929, and lived in California until 1962 when he died at age 69. I was 9 when he died but never remember him talking about the war at all, although I learned later that he won the DCM as a stretcher bearer. I've only been a member of this Forum for about a month but already I have found a lot of very interesting information. I've been trying to find which brigade he belonged to you this series of post has been most helpful. Regarding the subject of six-digit service numbers, my great uncle was later assigned the number 780236. Does that mean he was transferred to another brigade?

[rflory]

Joe: Leatham's number (780236) was issued to men in the 1/2 West Riding Brigade, RFA TF which later became 246th Brigade, RFA, so it would appear he remained in the same brigade. Dick Flory

[E Wilcock]

A cold thread? But the location was Mesnil. I came across this thread after identifying the unit 246 Brigade via CWGC searching for names of those killed that day and buried at Mesnil.

This extract is from p. 58 of the Memoir/Diary, Gunner on the Somme, by William Price, we are transcribing. He served in 240 Brigade of the RFA..

Mesnil 3 Sept 1916 . . . . .

A West Riding Battery nearby happened to have all its men out unloadinga limber, when a shell made a direct hit on the limber, killing six, woundingtwenty, only three men being left. The teams bolted and most of the horses werekilled. It was an awful sight. We helped to bury the horses.

[GaynorH]

Hi Guys

You look as though you may be able to help me......

Edward Craven Blakesley was in 246 RFA and is in London Gazette 1st Sept 1916 as recipient of Military Medal. A Bradford man, he is on a list on a roll created by the families of Bradford men who served (not accessible at mo) as receiving medal for bravery on 1st July 1916 (which is how I came to be researching him as he's my gt grandmother's cousin) His Medal Roll however doesn't list the MM! His number is 1736 (in Gazette and Medal Roll) and 780430 (for Silver War Badge & on Medal Roll) I have gleaned so far that the 246 was formed from 49th Div in West Yorks (pre war) , and was redesignated 246 from 2nd West Riding in May 1916, and they were TF first line.

Edward's Medal Roll states that he entered France on 15/04/1915, which was the same date as 1/6th West Yorks Regiment, although he is not on their list, so just coincidence I guess.

Anyway, I suppose what I'd like to determine is whether the family info which states the MM was awarded for bravery on 1st July (when gazetted on 1st Sept) and indeed if this was for bravery on 1st day of Somme (was he there or elsewhere?), and how I might find out what he did...........

I'd be v grateful for any help

Many thanks

Gaynor

[Roger H]

Gaynor

I have the 246th Brigade RFA war diary but I am away from home at the moment. As you say, the fore runner was II WR Brigade in which my G/F went to France on the 15th April, the same day a s your relative. I also have the war diary for II WR Brigade. I will try and post some details over the latter part of the W/E. However I am 99 % sure the diary for 1st July 16 will not mention your man. My recollection is that the entry for that day is a recollection of events by the C/O some time after

Roger