wer there civilian efforts to stop the war 1915-17

[anneg001]

I am completely ignorant of this war.

I know though that by 1917 the soldiers did not believe the war could be won, and that therefore the soldiers death was not contributing to the resolution of the conflict. There was mutiny etc

In remarque's book, Paul is chocked that the rear still expects them to continue. Was there any grassroot movement among civilians to support soldiers and try to stop the war during the war?

Was there any discussion in newspapers or backrooms of how the war could be stopped without a victory?

Was there any (failed obviously) diplomatic attemps to stop the war short of any side victory in 1916, 1917? 1918 would be too late since the US had moved its troups in.

[KONDOA]

Hello Anne,

Welcome to the forum.

Your first question is a heavy one but you will find some good responses I am sure.

First, it is difficult to form an objective view without a good overall picture of many aspects of the war.

Much literature was printed post war that has since beeen ingrained as the mood of the people when in fact much was very biased towards the writers own political or social views.

Having said that there are a few notable instances of efforts made to bring peace or a change of direction. One of these is alluded to in Siegfried Sassoons - Memoirs of an Infantry Officer.

The German and French armies had far different morale problems to that of the BEF. It is difficult to generalise concerning the troops perspectives as often they did not really know what was going off. Criticism and the like tended to rest with rich non combatants with little stake in the war itself.

All Quiet on the Western Front is of course a novel based upon the experiences of the writer. one can not determine what his particular "axe to grind" is or if at all.

This could be an interesting topic. lets see what transpires.

Roop

[anneg001]

Thank you for your reply.

I was just told of an american's grandfather, a swiss who had moved to the US and ran a wood working shop. When he refused to turn his shop into an armement shop, his establishment was picketed by people accusing him to be against the US and he felt a lot of heat/pressure against his decision. But there were others who thought like him and he was able to keep his shop going.

I suppose that any civil peace activism would stem from one or several of the following

personal loss/actual war experience

political ideas

religious ideas

Since it is hard to go against the tide by one's self, I suppose any civilian peace movement would require a political or religious leader?

I have not heard of any religious movement in Europe encouraging its membership to refuse to fight the way some did in the US (even if their members would thus face very harsh prison sentences)

The movie a long engagement gives the example of a socialist refusing the war and arguing for peace on the basis of political ideas about working classes versus other social classes.

Did any religious or political leaders speak up against war?

[healdav]

In 'All Quiet' I thought that Paul was fed up to the back teeth (not surprisingly) with people who thought that the war could be won by startegy and tactics worked out over a glass of beer and by people who didn't have the slightest idea what the conditions were like.

I think we can get the same feeling today sometimes. Stand on a battlefield and have a guide say something like, 'the ...... were held up by the opposition firng down on them from that height over there'. You look at the 'height' and its about 18 inches high. You wonder what the problem was. At least I do.

I'm quite willing to take the guide's word for it, but it can be very, very difficult to put yourself in precisely the situation that the troops faced.

This, I think is the point of that episode in 'All Quiet'.

[BeppoSapone]

Lots of people spoke out against WW1, but were not listened to. Think of it as a more extreme form of what is going on today over Iraq.

US President Woodrow Wilson spoke out for peace and Peace Conferences were held in places like Sweden. If you look into it in detail you will find that a lot was going on "behind the scenes", but the broad mass of the people wanted war.

Individuals who stood out for peace risked much. They could be beaten up or sacked from their jobs. One Norfolk schoolmaster cut his own throat after being victimised for speaking out against the war.

Several religious and political organisations were for peace. They tended to be the non-conformist sects and left wing political groupings.

A group called the No-Conscription Fellowship was established in Britain in 1915 in order to oppose conscription. When conscription started in 1916 a high % of Conscientious Objectors were members of the N-CF, or influenced by its ideas and pamphlets. You should find a bit on the N-CF if you search the net. One of its 'leading lights' was Bertrand Russell, and you will find much about his pacifist views online.

Some of the leading anti-war Christian groups to look for are: the Quakers, the Plymouth Brethren, the Christadelphians, the Seventh Day Adventists. Also, some groups that have changed their name, for example the "International Bible Students", who are now known as Jehovahs Witnesses. IIRC they were later very active in the US in opposing the draft for Viet Nam.

There were also a number of religious organisations that even then were very small, and have now died out, or are in the process of doing so. For example the Cokelers, who were something like a cross between the Quakers and the Amish and who lived in Sussex, England.

[anneg001]

thank you for all this info

I found that in 1914 the French army expected that 10% of the soldiers would not show. Only 1.5% did not answer the mobilisation (since 2.9 millions were mobilized in august, that's around 45000 people I think). A few anarchists continued to oppose war. A Peace movement became active again beginning of 1917, activists were arrested and condemned to prison sentences. In 1917 there were 2625 desertions on the front, 25500 at the rear (against 1430 and 15700 on average the previous years)

Ref: Auvray michel objecteurs insoumis deserteurs, histoire des refractaires en France.

this article gives some idea about the resistance to the conscription in Germany

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi...0508.00086/abs/

Mennonites, the bible students you mentioned, seventh day adventists, there were some socialists and anarchists.

The numbers this article discuss are very small. As are the numbers discussed of british Cos

in prison in books about that.

I wonder what the rate of desertion was in germany and england to compare it to the french one.

I found that wilson's envoy fore peace negotiation was edward house

In January 1915 Wilson dispatched House to Europe. House found that both sides were so heavily invested in the conflict that they feared a public backlash if peace were sought without victory.

in 1916, House met with Lord Grey in an abortive attempt to mediate a conclusion to the stalemated conflict. House had hoped to secure the commitment of the Allies for a peace conference; if Germany were to refuse to participate in those peace talks, then the United States would enter the war on the Allied side. House had actually exceeded his authority in making this offer, but it mattered little since neither side was ready for serious negotiations.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1051.html

I don't know where I can find out more about this negotiation.

[jhill]

As an example of what "peace activists" were up against, I am posting this newspaper clipping from the Edmonton Daily Bulletin of January 2,1915 reporting on a rumpus between the French government and the Catholic Church in which the authorities allegedly seized copies of the Pope's prayer for peace, which was supposed to be said in all parishs.

A little googling tells me that one of the first acts of the new Pope (Benedict XV) in 1914 was to issue a letter appealing for peace. In 1916 he issued a four point peace plan (perhaps serving as a model for Wilson's 14 points?). Of course this proposal was completely ignored; each side claiming that the Vatican was supporting the other side.

[anneg001]

Thanks, I will definitely try to find a book on this pope!

he explained to the warring nations: ‘What especially, amongst other reasons, calls for an association of nations, is the need generally recognised of making every effort to abolish or reduce the enormous burden of the military expenditure which States can no longer bear.  Each nation should be assured not only of its independence but also of the integrity of its territories within its just frontiers.' (Ben. 228)

Benedict added: ‘I also advocated formal acknowledgment of the right of all nations to the freedom of the seas.  On the one hand this would remove manifold causes of conflict and, on the other hand, it would open up fresh sources of prosperity and progress to all.'  (Ben. 220)

C. asked about war damages.

    He responded: ‘Generally mutual pardon should operate concerning war damages except for exceptional cases when justice and equity demand some form of reparation. I urged that when settling territorial disputes the aspirations of the people should be taken into account.'  (Ben. 220)

    As he explained further, it appeared that he considered Armenia, the Balkans and Poland to be examples of ‘special cases' where the aspirations of peoples needed to be respected.  (Ben. 220,221)

    With conviction he continued: ‘Forgiveness and reconciliation are the essential basis of a lasting peace.  I told the leaders of the warring nations that there was no need from me of a long proof to show that society would incur the risk of great loss if, while peace is signed, latent hostility and enmity were to continue among the nations.' (Ben. 223)

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theolo...hie_McGrath.htm

[BeppoSapone]

A little googling tells me that one of the first acts of the new Pope (Benedict XV) in 1914 was to issue a letter appealing for peace. In 1916 he issued a four point peace plan (perhaps serving as a model for Wilson's 14 points?). Of course this proposal was completely ignored; each side claiming that the Vatican was supporting the other side.

Some English Catholics set up a body called "The Guild of the Pope's Peace" around this time.

It never took off. Membership was less than ten, seven I think.

[anneg001]

The book Regeneration by pat barker, and Sassoon's memoire, 1967.

The complete memoirs of George Sherston do talk a little about the peace movement, and what they were up against, the impossibility to publish, the difficulty with getting food, the ill treatment in prison, being left naked with military cloth as the only option.

AT first, I thought Pat barker asked exactly the question a modern reader would ask, why did they tolerate "the wasting of all those young life". Judging the incompetence of the generals, their casualness vis a vis human losses is not so difficult.

But there is no answer. The sheer inertia of the events seems to leave everyone powerless to change the course of events. Generals need a clear victory to justify the dead. Vietnam. The dying claim the living...