Being granted Leave.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

From my readings and research it strikes me that the method for allocating leave to soldiers was arbitrary and they were merely told 'You have a 7 days furlough starting now'.

Am I wrong?

Was there a structured method for allocating leave?

And if so did a soldier know in advance when he was going?

Ian

[mordac]

Hi Ian:

I agree with you, it appears allocating leave was either an arbitrary process or if there was some set method it varied from battalion to battalion. I've also read of accounts where an individual or a whole company would receive a leave as a reward.

Again, the notice of a leave seems to vary from battalion to battalion. I've read one battalion giving only 24 hours notice and another giving 7 days notice.

Attached is an interesting CEF leave form dated July 31, 1917.

Garth

[Tim Birch]

I have read of soldiers being told that they have leave with no advance notice. The other point is that the time started from the notification and they had to allow for travelling within the leave period. For a man living say on one of the Hebrides Islands he might find he spent more time travelling than at home by the time he had got a train to Bolougne, crossed the channel, train to London, crossed London, train to Glasgow, train to Fort William, train to Malaig or Kyle, ferry to the island and bus or walk to home. Depending on the timing of connections this might take him up to 3 days. He then had to do the whole thing in reverse bearing in mind that if he was late due to a missed connection he might find himself on a Charge for being AWOL!

Tim

[Joe Sweeney]

Ian,

There was a considerable thread on leave and frequency of leave a few months back: Search for Don Stainton and you will find it.

Below is a messsage I posted:

"All units were in theory to maintain a leave roster. How this roster was maintained I do not know. Standard duration of leave was 10 days. Although more or less could be granted. Leave counted from when a man left his unit to when he reported back, inclusive of transportation time.

Toughest time eater was making it through the base ports to depart on transports to the UK. Special instructions were issued to base ports to prevent delaying both departing and returning leave soldiers (GRO 1418)

During the war a transportation network was set-up that totally accounted for men on leave, this included the issue of combined leave and railway tickets. Leave Train schedules were regularly published in Routine Orders.

Special instructions were also issued to units whose soldiers were proceeding on leave to Scotland, Ireland or Wales. That is GRO's 2519, 2591 and 2961 instruct that Soldiers should not be granted leave who are proceeding to Scotland or Ireland on a Saturday so not to be delayed in London awaiting a leave train. Those going to Wales should not be granted leave on a Saturday or Sunday so as not to miss a leave train and waste a day or two of leave. GRO 3068 gives instructions for Soldiers proceeding on leave to the Shetlands (10 per diem) who may use the Naval Train and Fleet Mail steamer. These GRO's were in effect in the BEF through 1918."

Joe Sweeney

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Thanks guys.

Sorry Joe missed that one, but it is nice to know that the Army bent over backwards to enable soldiers to maximise their leave at home - in theory

Ian

[Broznitsky]

"has been given a bath and supplied with clean underwear, free from scabies and venereal disease."

At first I chuckled at this, but then it reminded me of the serious issue that VD was in the Great War. Am I correct in thinking it accounted for more sick time than anything else, at least on the British Empire side? Oooh la la, ouch!

Peter, now in cloudy Vancouver

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Peter,

Any form of STD was regarded as a self-inflicted-wound

So you can imagine how those unlucky enough to be infected were treated!

Ian

[Joe Sweeney]

I beginning to doubt that getting the Clap was that big a deal in the Great War. From readying GRO's of the BEF it seems to have been an accepted fact of life.

An officer contracting was allowed to miss 4 months duty on account of VD before it could be reflected on his efficiency report.

Also the rules governing VD in the Provost Marshall's regulation were far more preventative than punitive.

In fact a special hospital was set-up at Rouen to handle VD cases and return them to duty status as soon as possible.

The KR and Army Act (section 11, 18 (3) and 40) sanction the concealment of VD and the unlikely aspect that a soldier knowingly infects himself or puposefully prolongs the infection. The act of getting infected is not actually considered a SIW. From my readings of GRO's it appears that the soldier (ofc and OR) was supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Joe Sweeney

[john w.]

But was known to be a problem as a lot of men were technically rendered usless for frontline work so there was a sense of urgency to keep them there or at least free of the STD so they could fight.

Imagine Capt Mainwairing on the subject... " a shabby Nazi trick.."

John

[Tim Birch]

"Honest Sir, I don't know how I caught it - must have been from a lavatory seat"

I suppose to prove a SIW the Provost Marshal needed to show that a soldier deliberately set out with the intention of becoming infected or showed extreme negligence in his conduct? Whilst the results could be serious it was presumably considered a more enjoyable way of getting a SIW than shooting your foot off! Given the conditions of the trenches, another common attitude to the risk must have been "What the hell? I could be dead tomorrow"

On the question of preventative measures, is it correct that there were brothels officially sanctioned by the military authorities where the girls received regular medical check ups? I believe this was so in the French army, but the official British attitude towards prostitution was possibly more prudish? The authorities were probably in a dilema, to have made things official and open might have been a problem so far as attitudes of those at home were concened. On the other hand to do nothing would drive the problem into the back streets increasing the risks of infection.

Tim

[john w.]

Sounds more like to me the typical British thing of knowing it is there but unless otherwise "it doesnt really exist".

As for authorised not my dept Im afraid....

John

[Broznitsky]

Sorry to hijack this innocent thread about leave into the seedy world of VD, brothels, and prostitutes, but, c'est la vie!

From Desmond Morton: "Nearly one in nine Canadians overseas was infected, a rate that exceeded even the Australian record...Idealists insisted that innocent young Canadians had been corrupted by England's army of industrious harlots; the more worldly wise argued that Canadian soldiers had brought their habits and some of their infection from home." "VD remained by far the largest single cause of hospitalization throughout the war."

Syphilis was treated with arsenic that caused harmful side effects, and there was no cure for gonorrhoea besides frequent irrigation with disinfectants. Remember, there were no antibiotics in those days. Condoms were never contemplated.

It wasn't until the American arrival that "Whitehall adopted regulations that threatened with prison any woman who infected a soldier." This simply created anonymity amongst the "professional" women.

Morton doesn't mention anything about the brothel situation in France.

[MelPack]

I was fascinated by the content of the leave certificate posted by Mordac. Is this an example of a standard certificate issued to all troops? Was a medical always conducted before the certification was granted? If the unfortunate soldier did have scabies or VD was this marked on his certificate?

My mother has told me that when her father was granted leave from the front in 1918, people used to move away instantly on the trams for fear of catching lice. Was there any procedure for 'de-lousing' and how effective was it?

[mordac]

Hi MelPack:

This was a standard leave form for the CEF. I've seen several of these issued by different battalions and they're identical. In all the reports I've read, the battalion M.O. did in fact conduct a physical examination of the soldier before certifying him fit for leave. I assume (but have no evidence) if on examination the M.O. found the soldier to have either scabies or VD the leave would be cancelled and he would be sent for medical treatment.

Before going on leave a soldier would have a shower, be provided with clean underwear, and his uniform would be cleaned and fumigated for lice. This would kill the active lice but not the unhatched lice eggs. I've read several reports where soldiers would use hot irons to press their uniforms (especially the seams) to destroy the lice eggs.

Garth

[Simon Furnell]

Hello Garth.

What a marvellous piece.

Shows were priorities were on the western front at this time.

What about the lice?

All the best.

Simon

[MelPack]

Hi Garth

Thanks for the reply - I agree with Simon that this is a marvellous piece because it adds to the profile of the routine dehumanisation that the troops must have suffered.

On a slightly different tack, ( I hope that I am not veering away too much from the thrust of this topic), I can recall from reading All Quiet on the Western Front, that the characters preferred to defecate in their trousers and 'cake' the dung rather than risk being caught by a surprise trench raid literally with their pants down.

I note from Chris Barker's feature on trench life that the latrine was often the most dangerous place in the trench because of its targetting by the enemy for shells, bombs and sniping. I suppose that this is one reason why bathing always figures large in the battalion diaries after a stint at the front.

On the latter, there is one poignant entry in the Battalion diary of the Royal Berks where one Company washed in a shallow pool after being relieved at the front. Unfortunately, all the soldiers sustained skin burns because the pool had been contaminated with mustard gas!

A living hell?

Mel

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

MelPack,

I think with all the shells, sniping and people generally trying to kill you, the majority of occasions where soldiers defecated in their trousers wasn't voluntary!

Ian

[MelPack]

Ian

I take your point!

[mordac]

Here's an extract from "My Grandfather's War" by William D. Mathieson, 1981. On page 72 is part of letter written by Ernest Jasper Spillet:

"Washing fails to kill the lice although, as someone said, they get an awful shock. But about two days after your change of clothing, you are shrugging like a typical Frenchman. The only way to get rid of these pests, and I have been rid of them for over a month now, is to sprinkle your underclothes with creoline - a disinfectant which our sanitary men use round the latrine. It is an extract of tar, and after application, when a man commences to sweat, he passes through the tortures of Hades. It burns the skin off my ankles and legs where my puttees bound them tight, but it is worth the suffering. What a luxury it was to lie down and go to sleep at night, instead of rolling and groaning, tearing madly at your flesh with your fingernails."

Garth

[Guest Hussar]

I assume (but have no evidence) if on examination the M.O. found the soldier to have either scabies or VD the leave would be cancelled and he would be sent for medical treatment.

In "Eye Deep in Hell", John Ellis states ".....from 27th January 1917 anyone who contracted VD became ineligible, for 12 months, for any leave."

[Guest Hussar]

Am I correct in thinking it accounted for more sick time than anything else, at least on the British Empire side?  Oooh la la, ouch!

Peter, now in cloudy Vancouver

"Between 1914 and 1918, 153,531 cases of venereal disease were recorded. The French forces suffered over one million cases, one fifth of them involving syphilis."

Peter, seeing as you're in Vancouver you may be interested in the fact that " In 1916, for example, the British Army had a VD rate of 36.7 cases per thousand men, whilst the Canadians had 209.4 per thousand."

[Raster Scanning]

On a similar vein.........