1888 Lee Metford Bayonet - Unit id?

[msdt]

Recently got this 1888 marked to the Royal Engineers - but which unit? It's dated 12 '97, Enfield made, with no re-issue marks.

One possibility for TDE is Training Depot something. Could E be Egypt? Also the inspection mark on the underside of the tang has the letter M, which place does that represent?

The scabbard is also Enfield, can't read the date, but has a matching 283 rack number on the throat.

Cheers,

Tony

[JMB1943]

Tony,

Just a guess, maybe M = Mole ?

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

Mole certainly seems likely - need to check tho',

[jscott]

Tony

Nice bayonet! I guess you're most interested in the TDE marking? Not one I've seen before - although a very quick search online suggested it may have Indian connections (although I haven't had a chance to read in detail). Otherwise training depot may also work - not sure about Egypt but am not aware of any such depots in the UK starting with an "E".

Cheers, J

[trajan]

That tang mark (no progress on the other one yet!)... Well, from what I have been able to check my understanding is that a crowned M inspection mark on a blade spine would be Mole...

But a quick look at what Enfield P.1888's I have gives me the following marks on the underside of their tangs:

04/90 - '(crown) / 18 / M'

08/91 - '[crown] / [??] / M' - [crown] not visible, [double digit number] but not clear what

10/96 - '(crown) / 10 / M'

08/00 - '(crown) / 1 / M' - pitted, and just possibly a double digit number, but position of the '1' makes it unlikely

03/02 - '(crown) / 1[2] / M' - certainly a double digit, and the second is pretty certainly a '2' from the curve of the head and what remains of the 'tail'.

The only other Enfield made P.1888 I have is 11/96 and seems to have a similar type of mark on the underside of the tang - also but it is pitted and so I can only see what looks to be the top of a crown and the legs of an 'M'.

So, probably an EFD 'inspector's mark... But no sign of it on any of my EFD P.1903's!

Julian

[shippingsteel]

Tony, check "The Broad Arrow" page 105 for combinations of RE markings. The T.D. is certainly indicated as standing for Training Depot.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Regarding the M marking on the tang, I have always regarded tang markings to be more of a 'process marking' than your regular 'inspection marking'.

Meaning they were applied during manufacture or repair and denote in-house procedures, rather than the official inspection found in normal positions.

As far as I know, what the M stands for is still 'unknown'. I don't think it relates to Mole manufacturing as their products are stamped B for Birmingham.

My theory is that the M stands for Manufactory - and that marking is an 'in-house' stamping applied during the manufacturing process at Enfield Lock.

You see at that time the Enfield facility was officially known as the Royal Manufactory, and appears stamped as such on the rifle roundels of that time.

So the roundels stamped on the rifle buttstocks show R Crown M over Enfield ... anyway that is my theory based on the research I have done to date.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Regarding the M marking on the tang, I have always regarded tang markings to be more of a 'process marking' than your regular 'inspection marking'.

Meaning they were applied during manufacture or repair and denote in-house procedures, rather than the official inspection found in normal positions.

As far as I know, what the M stands for is still 'unknown'. I don't think it relates to Mole manufacturing as their products are stamped B for Birmingham.

My theory is that the M stands for Manufactory - and that marking is an 'in-house' stamping applied during the manufacturing process at Enfield Lock.

You see at that time the Enfield facility was officially known as the Royal Manufactory, and appears stamped as such on the rifle roundels of that time.

So the roundels stamped on the rifle buttstocks show R Crown M over Enfield ... anyway that is my theory based on the research I have done to date.

Cheers, S>S

An interesting theory SS!

Yes, a process / stage rather than a regular 'inspection' mark - but these ones are crowned and they do have a number, and so they are similar in style to the 'regular' inspection marks. In which case, being quite unlike the single letter marks often found on P.1888 tangs, which I do think are production process related, they are an official stamp of some kind. Given the various processes involved in producing these bayonets then I can see them as something perhaps done after initial shaping and before 'bending', etc.

However, I am not entirely won over by the suggestion that the 'M' is for 'Manufactory'. I have seen previously the suggestion that the 'R / (crown) / M' incorporated on the stock markings on Martini Henry and Enfield-Snider rifles was for "Royal Manufactory", and that seems a reasonable interpretation - but I gather it has never been proven that the Enfield factory ever went by that name. Happy to be corrected, though!

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

So you have never heard of the Royal Manufactory hey Trajan, never even new it existed.? Why not just say that, than rely on the first Google hit that turns up.?

That's the reason why I mentioned "research" in my previous post, as you sometimes need to do a little of that in order to find out some of these historical facts.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

So you have never heard of the Royal Manufactory hey Trajan, never even new it existed.? Why not just say that, than rely on the first Google hit that turns up.?

That's the reason why I mentioned "research" in my previous post, as you sometimes need to do a little of that in order to find out some of these historical facts.

Cheers, S>S

Well, actually not Google me old mate... I was scanning through 19th Trade Directories for any reference to a 'Royal Manufactory' anywhere in GB and I couldn't find one, but could easily have missed such...

But SS, do please read carefully the post you are commenting on before dashing off a spirited reply!: "I have seen previously the suggestion that the 'R / (crown) / M' incorporated on the stock markings on Martini Henry and Enfield-Snider rifles was for "Royal Manufactory", and that seems a reasonable interpretation - but I gather it has never been proven that the Enfield factory ever went by that name. Happy to be corrected, though!

And I will be happy to be corrected if you can give me a published reference, that is, of course, if you don't mind sharing your research with me (and others)!

Trajan

[trajan]

I didn't know if SS would respond, and so I decided to look further myself and finally found a reference to the "Royal Manufactory at Lewisham", where barrels were made, being transferred to Enfield in 1816. Also found were: a reference to "the Royal Manufactory at Enfield" in a government commissioned report of 1830 in connection with drying butt stocks; a report on the quality of cavalry swords dated 1855 which refers to ""Superintendents of the Royal Manufactory"" (their quotation marks in the report); and a note by the BSA dated 1861 referring to assistance provided by the "Royal Manufactory". Nothing any later than that, though, and no clear evidence it was ever the official name for RSAF at Enfield which is what I would like to know!...

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Recently got this 1888 marked to the Royal Engineers -

Tony

Tony,

The Royal Engineer's Depot at Chatham was responsible for training new recruits, i.e. it was an R. E. T. D. ( Royal Engineers Training Depot ) and the Depot's 1st Reserve Battalion which was responsible for training new recruits, was made up of various Companies designated A. B. C. D. E. and F.

So your P1888 pommel marking was probably for the ' R. E. ' Royal Engineers ' T.D.E ' Training Depot E Company, with 283 being the bayonet's serial number.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

You see at that time the Enfield facility was officially known as the Royal Manufactory, and appears stamped as such on the rifle roundels of that time.

Here is a visual explanation of what I mean, together with a reference from a renown author in Skennerton, from a readily available source in "TLE", p.581

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Thanks SS! As I said in post 8, RM = Royal Manufactory does seem a reasonable explanation! I have no problem with that, so there was no need to get shirty and somewhat rude over a simple request for clarification / confirmation!!! What I did question is whether there is any official reference to the RSAF by that term: all the ones that I have found seem to be unofficial references. Sorry if I seem to be obtuse, but being a POF, and still here, I would simply like clarification on the issue. So, these marks are found on SMLE's also? Are they identical to the marks found on the earlier rifles? Just a simple request requiring a simple yes/no answer!

Anyway, back to a more interesting issue - those 'M' marks... Both the original P.1888 specifications (SA 118, issued 20 June 1889) and the revised ones for the Mk II (SA 118, issued 1 September 1897) refer to two sets of "view marks" only: one on the blade spine (or "back") after hardening, the other above this after polishing. So, those 'M' ones remain a mystery - but are clearly official 'view' marks of a kind and, it seems, common to all Enfield-made P.1888's.

Trajan

EDIT: Just out of interest for those that way inclined - I did a Google and found this page of M-H butt-stock markings with these roundels:

http://www.martinihenry.com/roundels.htm And when I re-tried that link, it didn't work so: http://www.martinihenry.com/wood.htmand go to 'Wood'!

EDIT: Tidying up syntax!

[msdt]

Well, thanks Trajan, S>S and LF!

I think it's pretty much answered now. I also found that I had another Enfield 88 from 1893 with crown/9/M on the bottom of the tang, so those marks do seem to be some form of Enfield inspection and I agree that M meaning Manufactory is a reasonable supposition.

And with "The Broad Arrow" having TD as Training Depot, LF's suggestion of the E representing E Company again seems very reasonable (and maybe the gap between the D and the E is thus significant). Actually these RE units are quite hard to decode as they can represent quite small and obscure units - e.g. the 1907 pictured below that is probably Royal Engineers, Cinque Ports!

Well, thanks again for the help guys, another successful mission! How about my 1917 scabbard posts???

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

Hi Tony, yes I have the exact same Crown2M marking found on my 1898 Enfield production P1888, so this particular question is not entirely new to me.

Another thing which may also be of interest, is I believe the Inspection Department was separated around that time, having their own inspection duties, etc.

So perhaps one set of the ubiquitous E markings for official inspection views and acceptance etc. and another set for in-house manufacturing processes.?

For any would-be pedants who wish to increase their knowledge by way of Google then perhaps try searching [ "royal manufactory of small arms" + enfield ]

For more common folk who just like talking about things on forums then here is a related LINK which may be of interest. This argument has been had before.!

Cheers, S>S

PS. And just like Royal Manufactory, here is another quaint olde English term to ponder ... Royal Laboratory often seen abbreviated as R^L.

So that must be Queen Vic's personal chemist and Royal supplier of medicines, right.!!?? Nah, they made gunpowder and rifle cartridges.!

[trajan]

... I think it's pretty much answered now. I also found that I had another Enfield 88 from 1893 with crown/9/M on the bottom of the tang, so those marks do seem to be some form of Enfield inspection and I agree that M meaning Manufactory is a reasonable supposition. ...

Have to say that I am not entirely convinced it is for "Manufactory" as the term seems to drop out of use in the 1850's or so (see below). It does not really matter its own way, but it would be useful to see if it is found on any Enfield-made bayonets from before the P.1888's. As I noted above, post 5, it is not on any of my P.1903's, but also as per my post 14, odd that this tang marking is not mentioned in the official specifications regarding the inspection markings of the P.1888's.

Hi Tony, yes I have the exact same Crown2M marking found on my 1898 Enfield production P1888, so this particular question is not entirely new to me. ... So perhaps one set of the ubiquitous E markings for official inspection views and acceptance etc. and another set for in-house manufacturing processes.?

For any would-be pedants who wish to increase their knowledge by way of Google then perhaps try searching [ "royal manufactory of small arms" + enfield ]

For more common folk who just like talking about things on forums then here is a related LINK which may be of interest. This argument has been had before.!

Cheers, S>S

PS. And just like Royal Manufactory, here is another quaint olde English term to ponder ... Royal Laboratory often seen abbreviated as R^L.

So that must be Queen Vic's personal chemist and Royal supplier of medicines, right.!!?? Nah, they made gunpowder and rifle cartridges.!

If this mark and the question it raised was not entirely new to you mate, then interesting to see you note it only now! I am certainly happy to admit that I have never given the marks that much thought until Tony raised the question!

But, SS, I do find your suggestion that this is some form of official mark (presumably applied before the hardening and polishing inspection marks - and the other marks that goes with these) interesting. By the way, do you have Mike Roses' book on the P.1888 and the P.1903 which has some detail on the inspection and marking process involved - although no mention of these tang marks. It is a useful text, though, for understanding the production and marking process (and more reliable than Google!) - and I was surprised to hear that you declined apparently to reply to his request for help with the research as I would have thought you would have so much to contribute there! Anyway, as indicated above, I think it will be worthwhile to see if the crowned 'M' mark exists on pre-1888 Enfield bayonets.

And being still very much here, and also a would-be POF - and happily one of the common folk (! - I know my station in life...) - I did have a look at the link SS supplied in the previous post - thanks: which basically tells us, as likewise the quote and text from Skennerton in post 13, that the term 'Manufactory' was in use for the RSAF in the early and mid-19th century (see my post 11)... Remembering that Skennerton is not infallible, in fact I even took up SS's suggestion and Googled '"royal manufactory of small arms" + enfield' and all the official mentions of the place by the name look to be early 19th century - the latest was 1859...

So, yes: "M" for manufactory is plausible; but I'd like to see some pre-1888's with the same mark before moving over the 50% line!

Trajan

PS: Oh, and SS, I still would appreciate an answer to my question, are these RM roundels found on SMLE butt stocks?

[msdt]

Hi Trajan,

Not sure why you say that the term Manufactory dropped out of use in the 1850's when the rifles these 1888 bayonets were made for have RM Enfield on the roundels on the butt. Yes, that the M on the inspection mark represents Manufactory is a supposition, but is that not a reasonable one?

Regards,

Tony

[trajan]

... Yes, that the M on the inspection mark represents Manufactory is a supposition, but is that not a reasonable one?

Certainly plausible and even reasonable (see no. 17), yes. I really have no problems with it being some kind of inspection stamp applied at the Enfield (manu)factory, just not so sure it does stand for Manufactory and wondering in particular why it is not referenced in the specifications for the P.1888 and why it is - so far at least! - only found on that particular model.

Julian

[trajan]

... rely on the first Google hit that turns up.? ... That's the reason why I mentioned "research" in my previous post, as you sometimes need to do a little of that in order to find out some of these historical facts.

I really must thank SS for that suggestion about using Google! Thanks mate! Now I know a better way of doing research!

I just did so (while waiting for dinner), using "P.1888 bayonet tang marks" and came up with what looks to be another - see: http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4787 where one can read, for the description of a P.1888 - "On one side of the blade: Victoria Crown over letters VR and dat 1, '00; On other side of blade: a sort of curved arrow head barb, over letters EFD ... On the metal tang of the grip: What looks like an upright oblong over 10 over M". I'd guess the oblong is a crown - but I could be completely wrong... However, I do believe in the GWF unstated(?) dictum that we are all still here to share and learn!

TTFN,

Trajan