The most profoundly moving story I have ever read

[Medaler]

Hi,

Firstly, I have escaped to this part of the site from the soldiers end, so please be gentle with me. Ships and navies are still new to me, and my knowledge is very limited.

I am in the process of reading Massie's book "Castles of Steel", where I have found the story of a German U-Boat being hunted down and depth charged by British Destroyers. Those of you already familiar with the book will already be aware of the story, but for those who are not, here is a brief summary.

The submarine was detected using Hydraphone technology, and duly attacked with depth charges. Crippled by their explosions, the sub descended to the bottom where it found its engines unable to propel the vessel more than a few yards at a time. Detecting that their enemy was still making some attempt at movement, the Destroyers continued to attack until they had no more charges left. None of these however had the effect of destroying the submarine.

A while later, the hydrophones picked up what were believed to be the last desperate attempts of the crew to get the U-Boat to move. An amount of time then passed until the hydrophones picked up a sound which they believed to be a pistol shot. Continuing to listen and count, there followed a further 24 of these shots, and then silence.

,

For some reason, and I do not mind admitting it, this story has affected me more deeply than anything I have ever read. Unfortunately however, Massie gives no mention of if this sub and its crew were ever identified, or dates, times, locations and identities of the Destroyers involved which might enable me to find out.

Has anyone ever managed to discover the identity of these poor desperate souls? I find myself completely unable to get my mind away from the horror of the situation they were faced with in their final hours, and would dearly love to know more about who these men were.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[johnboy]

The author is about 85 yrs old. Maybe an enquiry to the publishers? Strange that when writing about history names dates and places are not given.

[johnboy]

http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/index.php/t-165604.html

2nd post down attributes the story to historian John Keegan

[Medaler]

The author is about 85 yrs old. Maybe an enquiry to the publishers? Strange that when writing about history names dates and places are not given.

Maybe not so strange given how it appears in the book. It is more of an "aside to camera" than a detailed account of that particular action. I am finding it a very good read, and learning from it, but sailors are a new breed to me, so I can't speak with any great authority on its reliability. It is almost the first book I have picked up on the subject.

Middle of the night now, but I will follow up that Keegan lead in the morning. Many thanks johnboy, I had no idea you frequented these nautical pages!

Warmest regards,

Mike

[sadsac]

Hmmm !! No names of destroyers / the U-boot / year / month from the author ?? Do not know of the book or what time he was writing of. Was it WW1 or WW11. I know definitely of a similar story WW11.

Will await the Keegan lead follow-up before commenting further. Perhaps you `Medaler' can give a little more info from the book - if you have any ??!!

Sadsac

[Medaler]

Having been back to the book for more clues, I can state with certainty that it is WW1 - the book is only about WW1

The only other clue I have identified is that the original account seems to have come from Rear Admiral William S. Sims of the US Navy, and would seemingly therefore relate to American Destroyers that were operated out of Queenstown in Ireland.

The book also tells me that the first of these American Destroyers arrived in Ireland on 4th May 1917. Not much, but it at least seems to have eliminated a big chunk of the war before that date.

The Keegan lead has proved a bit of a dead end so far, but I will keep looking. I find it hard to believe that nobody has followed this up before, I am sure that they must have.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Medaler]

I have found a bit more info, from the opposite side of the fence.

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/fates/losses.html

I will try to plod through them after May 1917 and see what turns up. A date and location from the Destroyers would help loads!

Nothing on that list with a crew of 25 - just tried that!

Warmest regards,

Mike

[MartH]

Try Sims's biography page 193 read hear online https://archive.org/stream/victoryatsea00simsiala#page/192/mode/2up

[Medaler]

A bit more,

The reference in "Castles of Steel" seems likely to have come from "Victory at Sea" by Rear Admiral William S. Sims. There is a copy online...

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1Book-Adm_Sims-Victory_at_Sea.htm

[MartH]

Sounds like U42 http://www.uboat.net/wwi/boats/successes/uc42.html. Last ship it sunk September 5th.

[johnboy]

Don't know what's happened during the last 4 yrs.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0124/296859-cork/#video

[Medaler]

MartH,

That was amazing, both of us trying the same tack at the same time.

I can confirm that the account in "Castles of Steel" is exactly that one from Sims book. Massie almost quotes it word for word. The problem is that that account quoting the action starting on 6th September, I think apples to the following year, 1918. So not U42. The description of the loss of that boat through being blown up on its own mines (from the boats lost list) also seems not to fit.

The other problem is that nothing from the list of lost boats seems to fit for September 1918.

Thoughts please - Do not be afraid to tell me I have missed something or am being dense!

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Michael Lowrey]

A couple of points:

1. UC 42 (not U 42) is not the answer. UC 42 was a minelaying submarine that sank on its own mine while minelaying off the Irish coast. (The mine deployed immediately, striking the submarine's stern.) The wreck was relocated a couple of years ago. The Royal Navy stumbled upon the wreck about seven weeks after the U-boat was lost.

2. There was indeed an American sub chaser sinking claim on September 6, 1918. As stated above, the date and location doesn't match any U-boat loss. In fact, the RN categorization of the attack is “possibly slightly damaged.”

3. The concept of U-boat crewmen shooting themselves is not, however, fiction. To get out a sunk submarine of that era required opening the hatches. To do that you have to equalize the pressure inside and out — which means flooding the submarine. That's a very painful process. I'm aware of one or two cases where crew members did shot themselves because the pain was too intense.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Medaler]

A couple of points:

1. UC 42 (not U 42) is not the answer. UC 42 was a minelaying submarine that sank on its own mine while minelaying off the Irish coast. (The mine deployed immediately, striking the submarine's stern.) The wreck was relocated a couple of years ago. The Royal Navy stumbled upon the wreck about seven weeks after the U-boat was lost.

2. There was indeed an American sub chaser sinking claim on September 6, 1918. As stated above, the date and location doesn't match any U-boat loss. In fact, the RN categorization of the attack is “possibly slightly damaged.”

3. The concept of U-boat crewmen shooting themselves is not, however, fiction. To get out a sunk submarine of that era required opening the hatches. To do that you have to equalize the pressure inside and out — which means flooding the submarine. That's a very painful process. I'm aware of one or two cases where crew members did shot themselves because the pain was too intense.

Best wishes,

Michael

Many thanks Michael. As I say, I am taking cover here from the soldiers end of the site and will freely admit that I know nothing other than what I have just read. Your confirmation that it was not UC-42 does however back what I was thinking.

Your second point, concerning the report from the Destroyers (which I have not seen), would however strongly back the story in the book. Bearing in mind the full account given by Sims of the action on that date, and the evidence contained in that account, is there any possibility that this may be an unknown U-Boat loss? - Are all the German U-Boats "accounted for" one way or another? The RN account of "slight damage" does not remotely seem to fit the picture that Sims portrays, and I am sure he believed that what he was writing was factual. Is there anything in that account from the Destroyers to give a location for these events?

Sorry, I seem to be opening a can of worms, but I am only driven by curiosity and wanting to dispel my own ignorance. I would still like to know who those men were, if for no other reason than that it would allow them to be remembered properly. If Sims is accurate, then the account of their end is seemingly horrendous enough, without it being compounded by this additional oblivion above the waves.

Any suggestions regarding how I could follow this up further would be greatly appreciated.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[MartH]

Michael thanks for putting us straight, its always good when an expert explains these thing so nice. On another topic someday I should email you photos of the badges my english uncle captured from U110. Wrong war for this forum.

[johnboy]

Is there a German Memorial for missing sailors.?

[Canadian J]

Just wanted to let you all know I'm following this thread with much interest! I don't feel I am able to help but you seem to be asking all the right questions! Sometimes it would be great to be fluent in German so as to open up a lot more researching possibilities. Best of luck!

- Jordan

[johnboy]

There are quite a few members fluent in German who always seem willing to help with translations.

[Medaler]

Going back over the account by Sims in his book, which is a fuller account than that given by Massie, there is a reference to this taking place 150 miles West of Lands End. Now that is probably a bit "rough and ready" when compared to any actual coordinates, but it is a "ball park" location. I would still like to know the real coordinates, but that may help someone else to rule something either in or out.

There is also another thought. Quite possibly a very stupid thought, but I am new at this and therefore must be allowed to have the odd stupid thought from time to time.

I wonder if they got away with it?

Now the Sims account gives us the info that a black cylindrical object rose out of the sea and shot 30 feet into the air after one of the depth charges went off. I wonder if this was some sort of ruse to make it look like the U-Boat had been severely damaged? - I can only think that it must have been full of air to launch itself out of the sea like that, and I wonder if the rest of it was a ruse too - even down to those awful pistol shots.

If that is the case, then I suppose we are left looking for the story being told in Germany after the war. Maybe the answer lies with the families of these men after all.

That kind of brings me back to that earlier question concerning if, one way or another, the fate of all U-Boats is known. There is. of course, nothing to say that this same U-Boat may have been lost between this action and the end of the war, but that was only 2 months away.

Thoughts please!!!!

Do not feel under any obligation to be polite if I am being stupid!!!!

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Michael Lowrey]

Is there a German Memorial for missing sailors.?

There’s a German memorial to the U-boat crews that lost there lives during the world wars at Möltenort near Kiel. There’s also a larger and more well known Laboe Naval Memorial that’s also near Kiel (the WWII U 995 is on display at Laboe).

[KevinBattle]

1) The story appears to emanate from a US source. The US did not enter WW1 until 4 April 1917, therefore the story (if it has American origins) has to be some time after that date.

2) It presupposes that all the crew had access to at least one pistol being taken from hand to hand, and that all had decided to commit suicide.

3) Hydrophones were a fairly recent development and it would need time to make, issue, instal and train to use them. It seems, however, that someone new to this piece of kit could hear noises that he identified specifically as pistol shots coming from the submarine and not from elsewhere..

4) We don't have any identification of where, when, which ships or submarine was involved.

To resolve, we need to break through those obstacles. For example, what U boats had a crew of approx 25 or so in service late in the War?

[Medaler]

1) The story appears to emanate from a US source. The US did not enter WW1 until 4 April 1917, therefore the story (if it has American origins) has to be some time after that date.

2) It presupposes that all the crew had access to at least one pistol being taken from hand to hand, and that all had decided to commit suicide.

3) Hydrophones were a fairly recent development and it would need time to make, issue, instal and train to use them. It seems, however, that someone new to this piece of kit could hear noises that he identified specifically as pistol shots coming from the submarine and not from elsewhere..

4) We don't have any identification of where, when, which ships or submarine was involved.

To resolve, we need to break through those obstacles. For example, what U boats had a crew of approx 25 or so in service late in the War?

We do have a date, 6th/7th September 1918, and it was an encounter between US Destroyers based at Queenstown,Ireland and a U-Boat. These Destroyers were, I believe, under the command of the RN, rather than an independent naval force from the USA.

Reading between the lines, the crew would have numbered 25 plus. They are not all forced to have taken that option with the pistol. Most U-Boats, looking at the casualty lists, seem to have had a crew of between 25 - 35.

We do have an indication as to where - approx 150 miles West of Lands End.

Going back to the Sims account, there is another clue. He describes the Destroyer forces as "3 Subchaser Units under the command of Ensign Ashley D. Adams of the USNRF" - Maybe that is a way in to more info if somebody has his service details?

Ref my "ruse" train of thought - what you say has made me think again. A lot depends on what the Germans understood about the technology and the lengths they would have to go to to deceive its operators. Again, that is simply knowledge that I do not have.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[bingoworlddk]

Not sure if this helps, but there is a German language list of U-Boote from WW1.

It also lists their fate.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_deutscher_U-Boote_(1906–1919)

However it does not provide any details of a U-Boot sunk on Sept. 6/7 1918.

There is one for the 10th Sept. - UB83 sunk by a destroyer (HMS Ophelia) of the Orkney Islands.

But this does not fit with the description of the sinking.

Steen

[Medaler]

Johnboy,

There is a U-Boat memorial.......

http://uboat.net/history/moeltenort.htm

Steen,

I think that link above for the memorial is to an English version of the site you mention - and I agree, the Sept 1918 sinkings just do not throw anything up that matches.

Warmest regards,

Mike

[Michael Lowrey]

That kind of brings me back to that earlier question concerning if, one way or another, the fate of all U-Boats is known. There is. of course, nothing to say that this same U-Boat may have been lost between this action and the end of the war, but that was only 2 months away.

Thoughts please!!!!

Do not feel under any obligation to be polite if I am being stupid!!!!

Full disclosure: I'm one of the two people that handles the WWI section for uboat.net. I also work with divers to identify WWI submarine wrecks and

Are the fates of all WWI German submarines known? No. Are the fates of all British WWI submarines known? No. (The same applies in WWII.) This does not mean that any and all ASW attacks are potentially viable. Sometimes we can say with complete confidence that no U-boat could have been sunk in a particular attack. This is one of those cases.

WWI U-boat operations are really well understood. There's a German official history that includes dates when boats sailed and returned from patrol. In addition, U-boat war diaries survive. No High Seas Fleet or Flanders U-boats go missing at that point in time. Typical patrol length is a month for HSF U-series diesel torpedo attack and UBIII submarines. For Flanders-based boats, it would be shorter. Excessive required patrol length is one item that immediately makes a sinking claim suspect.

If the ASW attack had been say two weeks later, it would be a different story, when you get into the uncertainty surrounding Northern Barrage loses. UB 83, which sailed from Germany on September 7, 1918, plays into that -- I'm not in love with the Ophelia sinking claim but it, unlike the American sub chaser claim, is at least plausible.

As for Massie, it’s disappointing that he that he uses obviously outdated sources in his book.

Best wishes,

Michael