Armoured motor car photo: identification, please?

[wbremner]

This picture is dated January 22nd, 1915, the caption reads "Officers of the 2nd Sportsmen's Battalion inspecting an armoured motor car, which will form a part of their equipment". I have a few questions...

1. What type of armoured motor car is it?
2. What do the letters "W" and "D" signify - "War Department"?
3. Would an infantry battalion such as the 24th Royal Fusiliers typically been allocated this type of vehicle, and how would it have been used? Or was this just a publicity / recruiting type of photo opp?
4. Is there any way of tracing what happened to this particular vehicle?

Click on picture to expand...

Thanks,

William

Edited 14 January , 2015 by wbremner

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This picture is dated January 22nd, 1915, the caption reads "Officers of the 2nd Sportsmen's Battalion inspecting an armoured motor car, which will form a part of their equipment". I have a few questions...

1. What type of armoured motor car is it?
2. What do the letters "W" and "D" signify - "War Department

William,

Not too clear a photograph, however, from the main features of the vehicle it is a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car, with the ' WD ' marking standing for ' War Department '.

Many WW1 vehicles were retained and restored, you may wish to contact the Regimental Museum who may have details of the vehicle.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

William,

Here is the Rolls-Royce Armoured Car.

Regards,

LF

[wbremner]

William,

Not too clear a photograph, however, from the main features of the vehicle it is a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car, with the ' WD ' marking standing for ' War Department '.

Many WW1 vehicles were retained and restored, you may wish to contact the Regimental Museum who may have details of the vehicle.

Regards,

LF

Thanks, LF. Can you suggest any good sources of info on these, such as books or websites?

William

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks, LF. Can you suggest any good sources of info on these, such as books or websites?

William

William,

There is plenty of information on the WW1 Rolls-Royce Armoured Car on the internet.

Also, check out the current GWF Thread ' WW1 Motors ', there is much on there regarding WW1 Armoured Cars including the Rolls-Royce.

An excellent reference book is ' War Cars ' by David Fletcher.

Regards,

LF

[wbremner]

William,

There is plenty of information on the WW1 Rolls-Royce Armoured Car on the internet.

Also, check out the current GWF Thread ' WW1 Motors ', there is much on there regarding WW1 Armoured Cars including the Rolls-Royce.

An excellent reference book is ' War Cars ' by David Fletcher.

Regards,

LF

LF,

Thanks. I found it in the Fletcher book. Apparently the one in my photo is quite rare. According to Fletcher this is the only Rolls Royce acquired by the Scottish Horse Yeomanry, and has custom body work by Barker and Company. It was often used for recruiting and probably stayed in England when the regiment went overseas.

Thanks again,

William

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF,

Thanks. I found it in the Fletcher book.

I also saw it there, and with it probably having stayed in Britain, there is a much better chance that it has survived ( somewhere ).

Regards,

LF

[wbremner]

I also saw it there, and with it probably having stayed in Britain, there is a much better chance that it has survived ( somewhere ).

Regards,

LF

Perchance would you know how to get in touch with the author, David Fletcher? Thanks, William

[Steven Broomfield]

I can't imagine an armoured car would officially form "part of the equipment" of the 24th Royal Fusiliers (or any other battalion). Given that the photo dates from a time when the battalion was still training, and a while before going overseas, I suspect the likelihood is that the comment is:

• Journalese
• Wishful thinking by a hopeful Battalion CO
• A hare-brained scheme by some higher command to assist infantry battalions when the Big Push has succeeded in breaching the enemy lines
• A combination of all three.

Regarding David Fletcher, you could try a PM to Forum Member Gareth Davies, who volunteers at the Tank Museum and might know

[wbremner]

Steven, thanks, and I tend to agree, especially "Journalese" (no chance of that happening these days, right?). From reading about these early armoured cars, it seems that they were better suited to the flat, dry battlefields of the Middle East than the wet, muddy, lumpy terrain of the western front. Hence the development of the tank, but that's a different discussion.

That said, I'm tracking down the initial stages of the Sportsman's Battalions, and found out that early on some wealthy recruits donated their private cars. Plus, the battalions recruited quite successfully in the Perthshire area - and Scotland in general - to the extent that they had a piping band which included a gamekeeper of Lord Kinnaird of Perthshire, the famous sportsman. Given that the First Scottish Horse Yeomanry was also from the Perthshire area, this may be an interesting connection and one I will attempt to pursue.

Lastly, I am quite intrigued with the story about the early development of armoured cars and their privately-funded adoption in certain regiments, such as the Scottish Horse Yeomanry. The car in question had custom bodywork by Barker and Company ("coachbuilders to royalty") and so one may imagine an aristocrat such as Lord Kinnaird commissioning this when he was connected with the Scottish Horse Yeomanry.

William.

I can't imagine an armoured car would officially form "part of the equipment" of the 24th Royal Fusiliers (or any other battalion). Given that the photo dates from a time when the battalion was still training, and a while before going overseas, I suspect the likelihood is that the comment is:

• Journalese
• Wishful thinking by a hopeful Battalion CO
• A hare-brained scheme by some higher command to assist infantry battalions when the Big Push has succeeded in breaching the enemy lines
• A combination of all three.

Regarding David Fletcher, you could try a PM to Forum Member Gareth Davies, who volunteers at the Tank Museum and might know

[Lancashire Fusilier]

That said, I'm tracking down the initial stages of the Sportsman's Battalions, and found out that early on some wealthy recruits donated their private cars. Plus, the battalions recruited quite successfully in the Perthshire area - and Scotland in general - to the extent that they had a piping band which included a gamekeeper of Lord Kinnaird of Perthshire, the famous sportsman. Given that the First Scottish Horse Yeomanry was also from the Perthshire area, this may be an interesting connection and one I will attempt to pursue.

William,

There are various examples of Armoured Vehicles, which were provided via private funding.

Regards,

LF

[wbremner]

William,

There are various examples of Armoured Vehicles, which were provided via private funding.

Regards,

LF

LF,

Thanks. Perhaps worthy of a separate post(?). If I come across any more in my research I'll share with the forum.

Best, William.

[David Filsell]

Barker - building armour plated car bodies? Possible I suppose, but I doubt it unless they had geared up for specially for such work. Perhaps they did.

[wbremner]

Barker - building armour plated car bodies? Possible I suppose, but I doubt it unless they had geared up for specially for such work. Perhaps they did.

Hi David, the Barker connection was from David Fletcher's book on the Rolls Royce armoured cars. William.

[David Filsell]

Barkers were top of the range coach builders using traditional methods. The company was much favoured by RR and by their owners. Whilst I accept that is possible that they built the body, it's construction and the material used, armour plate, would have been outside their comfort zone I would have thought. As a point Of interest does anyone know who built the bodies for the rest of the RR armoured car production or how many were made?

[wbremner]

Barkers were top of the range coach builders using traditional methods. The company was much favoured by RR and by their owners. Whilst I accept that is possible that they built the body, it's construction and the material used, armour plate, would have been outside their comfort zone I would have thought. As a point Of interest does anyone know who built the bodies for the rest of the RR armoured car production or how many were made?

Hi David,

I found this on Amazon.. it's a bit grainy but from what I can make out is an article in "The Graphic" of December 1914.

http://www.amazon.com/Motor-Aviation-Armoured-Barker-Edward/dp/B0014GOR58

This armoured car appears to be somewhat different to the David Fletcher RR/Barker, so possibly this one is based on a Talbot chassis(?) I think the caption reads:

"AN ARMOURED MOTOR CAR constructed by Barker and Company, South Audley Street, W. for King Edward's Horse"

I wish I could make out the rest of the text!

William

[wbremner]

Here's a better picture of the Barker Rolls Royce variant, from the Rolls Royce Enthusiast's Club website:

[Sidearm]

Perchance would you know how to get in touch with the author, David Fletcher? Thanks, William

William

I have drawn David's attention to this thread on your behalf, and I'll send you his email by PM later.

Gwyn

[wbremner]

William

I have drawn David's attention to this thread on your behalf, and I'll send you his email by PM later.

Gwyn

Gwyn,

You are most kind, thank you.

William.

[David Filsell]

Wb

Interesting. Sadly I cannot 'fix' the image when enlarged to read. But it does look somewhat Talbotish. So perhaps Barkers did design and/ or build armoured cars or armoured car prototypes. More to be found I suspect.

Best regards

David

[depaor01]

This is a later version so possibly off-topic. Nevertheless an important Irish historical artifact that is in perfect running order.

http://www.military.ie/info-centre/defence-forces-history/sliabh-na-mban/

I have my own photos of it if interested.

Dave

[David Filsell]

I saw the Irish RR at Bovingdon last year. The members of the Irish army present, all sergeants, were highly amused that the Bovingdon machine was a non runner that day.