Pattern 1907 Bayonet Regiment Mark

[rg2712]

Hi all; can you help please?

RE: Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet - Issue date, November 1910 - Manufacturer, Wilkinson.

I have the following marking on the pommel; have checked various reference sites to ascertain the regiment but have drawn a blank!!

3/1KA

or

3/IKA

or

3/LKA

I have attached 2 pictures for reference

Here's hoping and many thanks for your help.

Richard

[trajan]

It looks like there is another letter, badly worn at the end. Is that an 'R' at the end? If so, 1/3 Kings African Rifles?

Trajan

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here's hoping and many thanks for your help.

Richard

Richard,

Check out Trajan's excellent suggestion, as there does seem to be a very feint ' R ', as the only other alternative to K.A.R., is ' KA ', which is an Indian Regimental mark used by the Karachi Artillery Volunteers.

Regards.

LF

[4thGordons]

Looks like King's African Rifles to me too.

The numbering of these was a little different I think so the 3 does not denote third line as it might more usually - but in this case I think means 3rd Company / 1st King's African Rifles -- at least this appears to be the usage HERE IN THIS ACCOUNT OF THEIR WAR.

Chris

[rg2712]

Many thanks Trajan, LF and Chris for getting back to me so quick.

I think you guys have "cracked the nut" as on further inspection, it does seem like there is a rubbed out "R" at the end; this could stack up to being K A R (Kings African Rifles) as my father maintained that he used the bayonet against the Japs in Burma (he was in the Chindits); I note that the K.A.R. played a crucial role in the crossing of the Irrawaddy River and I know there were a few at Kohima too.

Regrettably, my Father is know longer with us so I can't ask questions; however it does seem to fit as I know they resorted to "hand to hand" fighting at Kohima and at one point, towards the end, they grabbed anything they could get hold of to fight with (in his own words)!!

Many thanks again guys; a good bit of detective work done by all.

Best wishes

Richard

[shippingsteel]

It may pay to also show photographs of the markings on each ricasso (side of the bayonet) to see if they can offer anything in regards to dating of the regimental marks.

For instance, it is a little more unusual to see a 1910 dated bayonet that has been drilled with the clearance hole in the pommel. Other markings can help support a story.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... the only other alternative to K.A.R., is ' KA ', which is an Indian Regimental mark used by the Karachi Artillery Volunteers.

To be honest LF that was, actually, my first thought, remembering that detailed discussion from a few years back - which is at http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=177179&hl=%2Bkarachi+%2Bartillery#entry1725148 for those who want to view it! But the hint of the 'R' was enough to save me from going down that much discussed route

... I think you guys have "cracked the nut" as on further inspection, it does seem like there is a rubbed out "R" at the end; this could stack up to being K A R (Kings African Rifles) as my father maintained that he used the bayonet against the Japs in Burma (he was in the Chindits); I note that the K.A.R. played a crucial role in the crossing of the Irrawaddy River and I know there were a few at Kohima too.

Regrettably, my Father is know longer with us so I can't ask questions; however it does seem to fit as I know they resorted to "hand to hand" fighting at Kohima and at one point, towards the end, they grabbed anything they could get hold of to fight with (in his own words)!!

Condolences on your father - but very nice that he gave the story with it before he passed on.

BTW, as SS suggested, it will be of interest to have photographs of both ricassos as that might help in establishing a bit more of its history.

Trajan

[rg2712]

Thanks S>S and Trajan

In have attached photos of both ricassos; interesting enough though, under Wilkinson is, what I make out to be, Pall Mall. could the bayonet been purchased in Pall Mall for personal use by an Officer (junior/cadet perhaps)?

Thanks for the condolences Trajan; he died in 2004 aged 84yrs. At the end of the war, after leaving Burma, his rank was "acting major in the field".

Look forward to your thoughts.

Richard

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In have attached photos of both ricassos; interesting enough though, under Wilkinson is, what I make out to be, Pall Mall.

Richard

Richard,

The addition of ' PALL MALL ', which was Wilkinson's London show room, is not usually seen on the standard Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets made by Wilkinson for British military service.

However, that ' PALL MALL ' addition is shown on non-service bayonets supplied to Schools, Colleges and other Officer Training Units ( OTCs ) where the bayonets were purchased privately from Wilkinson.

It could have been that this bayonet was originally purchased for a School/College OTC., and due to WW2 shortages, found its way into British Army service ?

The other markings on your bayonet's ricasso are standard markings for the ' X ' blade bend test, inspector's marks and the Royal Cypher and ' 1907 ' Pattern Date.

Regards,

LF

[msdt]

Hi,

Could that be 11 18 as the manufacture date?

Cheers,

Tony

[rg2712]

LF; many thanks for your extremely interesting thoughts.

Where would the K A R (Kings African Rifles) come into it I wonder?

Best wishes

Richard

Thanks Tony; seems that you could be right - well spotted!!

Regards

Richard

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF; many thanks for your extremely interesting thoughts.

Where would the K A R (Kings African Rifles) come into it I wonder?

Richard,

The Kings African Rifles were in existance from 1902 until the 1960's, so from the time Wilkinson produced this bayonet, it could have been used in a School/College OTC Unit, and then during the inter-war years or during WW2 found its way into British Army service. We know that the K.A.R. fought in Burma against the Japanese during WW2, so that would tie in with your Dad.

Early in WW2, there were drastic shortages of weapons, so that could have been when this bayonet found its way into the K.A.R.

If the bayonet is dated November 1918 ? that would exclude WW1 use, so I would think that it was most likely taken into British Army service early in WW2.

Regards,

LF

[rg2712]

LF

Again, very astute stuff, it does tend to tie in. We are aware that the officers in the K.A.R. were mostly seconded from British Army regiments; perhaps one of them privately purchased the bayonet in Pall Mall and took it with him to Africa and eventually ending up in Burma.

I only wish my Father was alive today; I could ask the question!

Thanks again and best wishes

Richard