Information in ICRC records

[mariantho]

I have found the ICRC records for my grandfather, who was apparently held at Dulmen and at Freidrichsfeld.

I noticed that on the second record where he is at Friedrichsfeld, the fifth column, which is for the place previously held, also contains information on whether the man was injured or not and if he was, specifies where. For example, my grandfather had injuries to his left shoulder and thigh. Most of the other men on the same page and on the pages before and after him, are recorded as "not injured".

I have read that many prisoners were registered as being at official camps but were actually at labour camps or working illegally assisting the Germans behind their front lines. I am wondering if these injuries relate to such work, as it does not seem to make sense they would record old injuries.

Does anyone have any idea about this?

Thanks

Marian

[seaforths]

They still had to work in the camps they were at in mines, factories, farms etc. so he could have sustained injuries in any job he was detailed to do while there. Men were also sent to Work Lagers but remained registered with their main camp and received parcels and mail via that camp. Those captured in 1918 tended to be kept behind the lines working in danger zones either for an extended period or indefinitely. Some of these were forced to register with camps in Germany that they either never went to eventually when they were too weak to work at the front any longer. Some were never registered at all and have no camp records only a repatriation record.

Some men were also sent to unofficial camps and reprisal camps as a punishment but remained registered with the original camp. Unfortunately, the only ways to find if men were held at these unofficial camps was if they died there (in which case their death is registered at that location but they show as being registered at another at the time), if they kept a personal diary or made other notes elsewhere at the time; wrote a recount afterwards or, escaped from one of these locations and gave their statement.

The British new of the existence of some of the unofficial camps but getting the Germans to admit there were camps at these locations was a different matter. I have seen documentation whereby the British asked them to acknowledge the existence of a camp and requested an inspection. Germany denied it existed and therefore it couldn't be inspected. Germany also refused to allow inspections at some Work Lager on the grounds that if the main camp had been inspected, they had no need to go and inspect other places. Also denied access on the grounds of sensitive work being carried out there or in the vicinity.

[mariantho]

thank you Seaforths for your informative reply. I guess this is a question we will never know the answer to, unfortunately. My guess is that he was working behind the German front lines, as we know he had a bit of shrapnel lodged in his shoulder, and this is one of the injuries mentioned.

Thanks again

Marian

[seaforths]

You're welcome. There are a couple of books on the subject. Horne & Kramer: German Atrocities...A History of Denial and Heather Jones: Violence against Prisoners of War in the First World War.

The ICRC records have been online only a little while but as time goes on I would imagine that others will raise queries on their relatives and their time as POWs. You might see someone who posts something or has information that might be relevant to you. It seems from some of the accounts I have read recently that their experiences vary a little depending on where and by whom they were captured. Injuries by friendly fire as they worked close to the lines caused many casualties as did illness from the terrible conditions in which they were kept.

There were also some men that were returned to those areas from German camps because of their lack of cooperation with the Germans or repeated escape attempts.

You might also get some leads by starting a topic and putting up information about him there may be folks who had relatives captured from the same battalion and regiment at the time who might have access to other information from personal diaries etc. It is early days in terms of the release of information. I have a number of files still to go through regarding unofficial camps (from a recent trip to the archives) and when I eventually get around to them, I will post anything that may be of interest. However, if you live within access distance to Kew there are an awful lot of files there on POWs...

Edit: Typo corrected.

[mariantho]

many many thanks. Unfortunately I don't live near Kew, I am in the south of France. A couple of times a year I do get chance to go to London though, and I would be able to look through the files at Kew and to post any information that I find that might be of interest to others. I guess the staff there are happy to point people in the right direction? Thanks also for the tips about the books. I have just been reading "Behind the Wire" which is very much an eye opener.

As per the day of capture, there is a description in the War Diary of the 7th Battalion Suffolks, which is reprinted in the book about the regiment. The previous day great success had been made in breaking through the Hindenberg Line, using tanks. My grandfather and his company had retired to a sunken road not far behind the line. Early in the morning of the 30th november 1917 they awoke to find themselves surrounded, company HQ was captured as well. On the first ICRC record, which is for Dulmen, it also mentions Le Quesnoy, so he may have been held there for a while.

Thanks again

Marian

[Dogan Sahin]

This is interesting comment by Mariantho " I have read that many prisoners were registered as being at official camps but were actually at labour camps or working illegally assisting the Germans behind their front lines" . I feel the same case is valid for a Zagazig Camp, where an Armenian Ottoman Officer was held . Normally I would find " some" link to any POW camp info over the internet but this time to no avail. I know for a fact that Officer Mesrobian was held at zagazig camp but no info at ICRC page either.

[seaforths]

This is interesting comment by Mariantho " I have read that many prisoners were registered as being at official camps but were actually at labour camps or working illegally assisting the Germans behind their front lines" . I feel the same case is valid for a Zagazig Camp, where an Armenian Ottoman Officer was held . Normally I would find " some" link to any POW camp info over the internet but this time to no avail. I know for a fact that Officer Mesrobian was held at zagazig camp but no info at ICRC page either.

I am guessing that maybe you have read a personal account or something by Officer Mesrobian? I have a few written accounts of men held at different camps and could not find anything online for these places. I did find Foreign Office files in our National Archives that show they did exist so further proof. There was also incidents of camps that were claimed to have been abandoned and closed by the Germans but they still contained prisoners and continued to be used. I wonder if you have an archive you can check to help you find further proof? It might be that, like me, you would have to go in person because the information you seek is not held digitally.