Gunner R.F.A. Regular or Reservist?

[anthony P]

Hi

I am researching S. Glover, Number 64262, Gunner.

He landed in France 19th August 1914. Would he have been a Regular Soldier, or a Reservist called up due to the

outbreak of the war?

Any help or information on S. Glover would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Tony.

[johnmelling1979]

^{This chap ....}

^{Glover, Stanley}

^{5th Divisional Ammunition Column Royal Field Artillery 64262 Gunner}

[johnmelling1979]

Hello Tony,

Have you tried looking for a War Diary to help with your research?

cheers John

[johnmelling1979]

_{5th Divisional Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery served with 5th Division. 5th Division arrived in France with the BEF in mid August 1914. They were in action in The Battle of Mons and the subsequent retreat, The Battle of Le Cateau, The Battle of the Marne, The Battle of the Aisne, The Battles of La Bassee and Messines and The First Battle of Ypres. In 1915 they were in action at The Second Battle of Ypres and the Capture of Hill 60. In March 1916 5th Division took over a section of front line between St Laurent Blangy and the southern edge of Vimy Ridge, near Arras. They moved south in July to reinforce The Somme and were in action at, High Wood, The Battle of Guillemont, The Battle of Flers-Courcelette, The Battle of Morval and The Battle of Le Transloy. In October they moved to Festubertand remained there until March 1917 when they moved in preparation for the Battles of Arras. On 7 September 1917 the 5th Division moved out of the line for a period of rest before, being sent to Flanders where they were in action during the Third Battle of Ypres. 5th Division was sent to Italy and took up positions in the line along the River Piave in late January 1918. They were recalled to France to assist with the German Advance in late March 1918 and were in action during the Battles of the Lys. On the 14th of August 1918 the 5th Division was withdrawn for two weeks rest. Then moved to The Somme where they were more or less in continuous action over the old battlegrounds until late October 1918 and saw action in the Battles of the Hindenburg Line and the Final Advance in Picardy. At the Armistice they were in the area of Le Quesnoy and moved to Belgium to the area around Namur and Wavre in December and demobilization began.}

[anthony P]

Hi John

Thanks for your quick reply

It is Stanley Glover, 64262.

Did the 5th Divisional Ammunition Column embark to France so early?

All I have about Stanley is his Service Number, so I am starting with a blank canvas. Looking for any information relating to him.

Thanks again.

Tony.

[anthony P]

Hi John

My reply crossed over your response.

Wow!!!

Canvas is no longer blank.

Thanks for your detailed account of the 5th D.A.C. I take it from the details you have supplied that Stanley Glover was indeed a

Regular at the start of the war.

Many thanks

Tony

[battiscombe]

He will be a Regular who signed up I would think in early March 1911 with that number ... on a 12 year enlistment : 6 years full time + 6 years reserve [was normal enlistment in 1911] . As such he would probably be listed at an RFA Depot or his first battery at the time of the 1911 census. As the 5th DAC was newly created Aug 1914 he will have been posted from elsewhere to join it.. possibly 5th Reserve Brigade at Athlone [144th and 145th Batteries] .. as several of their officers [including the c/o Lt Col England] and senior NCOs came from there, the men mainly being reservists/special reservists

[anthony P]

Hi battiscombe

Thank you very much for the information.

Good thinking about the 1911 census. If like you say he was with the 5th Reserve Brigade at Athlone, is that in Ireland? If so then the

1911 census will provide me with his personal details, date of birth, place of birth, age etc.

Checking now.

Thanks again

Regards

Tony

[tullybrone]

Hi,

I think you may find limited information on British Soldiers serving in Ireland 1911 Census - if my memory serves me well they are identified by initials only - same as RIC in Police Barracks.

Steve Y

[anthony P]

Hi Steve

Thanks for your reply.

You are right, information is very limited. I have checked the 1911 Irish census for Stanley Glover, no mention at all, also checked

the 1901 census, same result nothing.

I am starting to think he was a resident in England but based in Ireland, but where to start?

Maybe there will be some information on the Medal Rolls for his Regiment. Unfortunately living in Stoke-on-Trent, getting access is to

them difficult.

Many thanks

Regards

Tony.

[battiscombe]

But you can check the Athlone barracks.. and see if there is a man listed by initials S G with the right age; some RFA units do provide full names .. as there seems to be much variation.. in some units one battery has full names of men, the next battery only initials. I have copied many Irish census rolls but not all.. the trick is to find the correct page for the relevant unit .. by 1914 the No. 5 RFA Depot was also at Athlone.. linked to the Reserve Brigade

but it was of course different in 1911... that is a red herring, sorry. BUT if he is not shown on a British or Indian census page [unlikely to have been posted there by that data] , he *could* be on an Irish census page but quite possibly listed only under his initials. I see there are in fact 3 S Gs listed in Athlone West Meath aged 19 20 and 22 .. these are No 2 Depot.. if that may be relevant.. do we have an age and place of birth for him?

[anthony P]

Hi battiscombe

Thanks for you reply and added information.

I have no age or place, or date of birth for Stanley Glover. The only information I have is from his M.I.C. this gives his rank,

Gunner, his number 64262, and 5th D.A.C. also his qualifying date 19th August 1914. earning him the Victor, British, and 1914

Star.

The reason I am researching Stanley is that I purchased his Victory and British Medals last week, the first medals I have ever

brought. My Grandfather was a Driver with 232 brigade R.F.A., formally 3rd North Midland Brigade, and his medals have long since

been lost. My idea was to replace them with another R.F.A. mans. Now I am feeling a bit guilty as someone else in this case

Stanley Glovers relatives, may feel like I do.

Where did you find the three S.G.'s listed in Athlone, West Meath. I searched the Irish census 1911 and 1901 with no sign of him

by name or by initials.

Thanks again

Regards

Tony.

[battiscombe]

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

and enter S and G and that provides a large group of institution census returns..[100+! which can be a narrowed down to a relatively few barracks .. as this will include asylums and other institutions] it is likely that he enlisted around the age of 18 .. so that will also narrow down possibilities.. but if you dont know more this could be very tricky

[anthony P]

Hi

That a good search engine.

In you opinion do you think that Stanley is Irish?, or could he be English, but sighed on in Ireland?. Now knowing he was a

Regular Soldier, could he have been transferred to Athlone from a British Brigade?

I have been searching the 1911 English census, 16,000 entries, I am about half way through them.

You mentioned three possible S.G.'s 19,20, and 22 I could search for his birth on Ancestry, but where? Ireland or England?

A bit of a quandary.

Are there service records for Regular Soldiers before the start of the war?

Thanks for your endeavours.

Regards

Tony.

[battiscombe]

As Ireland was part of Britain in 1911 and substantial parts of the British Army were based there - there is no reason to think he is actually Irish [possible of course..] - there were several artillery depots at that date and new recruits could go to any .. in 1911 they were at Woolwich - Athlone- Seaforth moving to Preston- and Cosham . I find I do in fact have much of the 2nd Depot census returns, but do not see his initials there ...

Surviving service records are available online - some date back to the 1880s and earlier ... but his do not appear to survive.. Unless he is a much older soldier who enlisted in the 1890s that number is almost certainly relating to an early 1911 enlistment i am pretty sure he should have been in the army by May? 1911 when the census was taken .. and if only a few months in.. possibly still at one of the training depots. If a much older soldier .. so 18 by the later 1890s .. you might find a Stanley Glover in some earlier census returns .. but confirming if he is this/your Stanley Glover would seem difficult .. although it does seem a relatively rare name.. but perhaps look for record of death.. which would give an age ..

[anthony P]

HI battiscombe

I really appreciate all your efforts, everything you find or suggest makes complete sense, Stanley is a hard man to trace.

I will take your valuable advice, and check earlier census returns, and records of death. If I work on him being 20 at his 1911

enlistment, then work backwards increasing his age a year at a time, I may get lucky. A birthplace would have been a great help, but I

will persevere with all the information you have generously supplied.

Many thanks again.

Regards.

Tony.

[battiscombe]

I have been working through the list of men at No 2 Depot Athlone in the 1911 census.. which appear to be listed in service number order :- matching initials to names,

looking down the list = reverse order.. :

G T .... Garnett Tart 64289 [enlisted 16/2/1911]

J J C....Joseph James Carpenter 64281 [enlisted 13/2/1911]

C H M....Charles Henry Marshall 64280

J W G.. John W Green 64278

T B...Thomas Bibby 64272

one before is J.... T....

and one before is S.... G.... [we are looking for 64262..!] who is is identified as aged 20.. born England .. Church of England.. and previous occupation Miner ..

one before is G..H.... B... = George H Bentley 64261

i think this S G is Stanley Glover

[anthony P]

Hi battiscombe

You are a STAR.

You have persevered and you information is first class.

Stanley (64262) who you have identified as age 20 in 1911, I am now looking for a Stanley Glover, born about 1891, in England,

Church of England, previously a Coal Miner.

I will check Birth Records, Census Records, and just in case Marriage Records. I will check the main Coalfield area's.

Would Stanley have signed on in Athlone, or in England? If Athlone, maybe a family connection in that area.

Thanks for all your efforts, I would still be looking at his M.I.C. if not for your expertise.

Regards

Tony.

[battiscombe]

I was surprised this turned up.. but seems to make sense!

There is no knowing where he enlisted I think, the records of those other men mentioned do exist and seem to be from all over.. he just happened to be posted to the Athlone depot... someothers enlisting at this time with similar numbers went to Woolwich.,, but all recruits went to one of the 4 Depots, they did not enlist there.. One was from County Kerry .. one from Cork .. some 'Wales'...'Scotland'... 'Isle of Man... but most from England .... one earlier in the census list was from British Guiana! several ex-miners and colliers in the census..

One point seen in other records is that these 1911 enlistments may in fact have been on 3 + 9 enlistments and not 6 + 6 year, so many of these men were in fact in the reserve in 1914 and mobilised. ..this needs confirming.. .. I think this makes Athlone his Depot and he would have been mobilised at Athlone.. [so had to travel there in 1914] .. which then provided men for the 5th DAC.. a couple of those other men went to France in 8th Brigade RFA.. also in 5th Division, also having joined the 8th Brigade on mobilisation. So interesting to consider that in 1914 these men who first met as recruits in 1911 were meeting up again, ..

[anthony P]

Hi

Just to confirm.

Stanley Glover enlisted in the Royal Field Artillery in 1911, he was then posted to Athlone, this being one of 4 Depots new recruits

were posted to.

He enlisted for 3years plus 6 years on reserve, so when war broke out he was mobilised back to Athlone, then posted to France with the

5th D.A.C.

He was at Athlone when the 1911 Census was carried out. Therefore I should concentrate on the 1901 English Census to establish where he

lived, which in turn could determine where he enlisted.

The main area of my search should be centred in the Coalmining areas of the Midlands and North of England. Birth and Christening

Records, I will be looking for the son of a Coal Miner, in the afore mentioned area's.

That's the plan, what do you think.

Many thanks again for your determined efforts.

Regards

Tony.

[battiscombe]

you would need to check similar records to confirm the 3+9.. he was in barracks at Athlone on census day. lots of places had mines in 1911.. Kent.. Bristol/N Somerset....

this shows the most likely place to find the name http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=GLOVER&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name.. Midlands indeed..

[anthony P]

Hi

Thanks for the link, I will check it soon.

I would never have thought of Kent, Bristol, or Somerset, tend to think of Notts/Derby, Stoke, or the North East.

I have been checking dates of birth 1,000 to go, but up to yet have two possibles one born Apr/May/Jun Whitby and one Jul/Aug/Sep

Glamorgan. I will check all results with the 1901 Census for sons of Miners.

Many thanks

Regards

Tony