Explosive Bullets

[N.S.Regt.]

I have a group of medals to 283536 Pte. Antonios Martin which I had found a couple of interesting facts about him. The first is that he was born in Turkey and the second is he was wounded in the right arm by a explosive bullet. The wound was quite severe and he lost quite a bit of movement and feeling in it. I thought that these rounds were not used on personel like Dum Dums. Does anyone know anthing about their use during the war.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[Malcolm]

Not sure but in the RFC to carrying incendiary bullets in your guns to shoot down observation balloons was covered by written orders from the CO. If you had some left after the balloon you could shoot up something else. No doubt the Germans did the same.

Aye

Malcolm

[N.S.Regt.]

Malcolm

The only reference I seen to explosive bullets used by Germans is for WW2 they called them Beobachtung Patrone (Observation Cartridge). I wonder if these are what he was hit with, they are a explosive tracer and may have been used on the ground for balloon busting. But I have no reference for their use in WW1

Best Regards

N.S.Regt.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I doubt it was an explosive round, more than likely it was simply the destructive force of close range machine gun fire. I have not come across any reference to the use of explosive bullets against infantry by the Germans yet.

Ralph

[Max Poilu]

There was a very interesting program on the History channel this week exploring the history and development of bullets through the ages.

IIRC bullets reversed and fired with the blunt face forward (a la dum dum) produced similar effects to explosive rounds.

[N.S.Regt.]

Ralph

I could not find anything mentioned on German cartridge headstamps for the period that is why I thought it was odd it is called a explosive bullet in almost all his medical reports.

Giles Poilu

You could be right a Dum Dum causes a lot of damage. I would like to see the Program hope it is on here in Canada. Another Interesting point about cartridges is that the British expermented with hollow points about the turn of the century I have 3 British Mark IV brasses and a Canadian Mark VI Brass the Canadian round is dated 1905.

[Captain Dave]

I doubt it was an explosive round, more than likely it was simply the destructive force of close range machine gun fire. I have not come across any reference to the use of explosive bullets against infantry by the Germans yet.

Ralph

Concur with this opinion. If a projectile hits the bone at the right angle, it won't only penetrate, it will also shatter the bone. The shattering causes bone splinters to be driven off at high velocity in all directions causing secondary damage to soft tissue etc,.

This chap is probably lucky he wasent killed as the trauma on the surrounding tissue and damage normally causes the recipient to be killed by the loss of blood shock and internal bleeding.

[NIGEL]

The only people who would use an explosive bullet in any circumstances, would be a game hunter or an assasin. I think in the military they are banned and also expensive to produce. If another kind of explosive round was used, then it most probably had an alternative purpose than to shoot an ordinary soldier

[Marco]

IIRC bullets reversed and fired with the blunt face forward (a la dum dum) produced similar effects to explosive rounds.

Indeed. I recall reading that French troops found German rounds with the bullet reversed. I'm not sure if i was a diary or one of those novels written by soldiers 'based on trhe truth' (not my words ).

Regards,

Marco

[museumtom]

The Dum Dum bullet was banned by the Haig convention in 1899 and as far as I know no Army used them because the enemy could use the Dum Dums against them also. They were originally a hollowpoint round. In my sertvice days rambo types said that if you cut a cross in the top of a bullet it would split into four when it hit the enemy. The fact about this is that the Full metal jacket, usually made from Copro Nickel, would not exit the rifle as it would get stuck in the rifling, the lead antimony core however would burst through the cut head of the round leaving you rifle fouled and unusable. In the head of a bullet even early .303s the tip inside the core was made of aluminium. This caused the 'tumble effect'. When it hit the target the aluminium tip caused the round to tumble which caused terrible damage.

tom.

[riflegreen]

The only "explosive" cartridges used by the British forces were used by the RFC for attacking zeppelins & ballons , the Pomeroy & Brock cartridges spring to mind , both had a nitro glycerine filling that exploded on contact with the zep/balloon covering instead of going straight through.

As with all British ammo they had specific head stamps . I think it unlikely that the Germans reversed bullet heads as the standard 7.72 cartridge had a very short head & would not fit reversed into a case .

The hollow point Mk3 .303 bullet was used by the British until superseded by the pointed type - MK5 onwards ? .

Interestingly the dum dum was so named as the first were produced at the Dum-Dum Arsenel in India .

Chris

[NIGEL]

Tom

Dum-Dum bullets were used widely in WW1, illegally yes but always being used in different areas of the war, if you were captured with them on your person or in your gun, you were dispatched with one of your own Dum-Dums, but of course officially this would be denied

[Robert Dunlop]

FWIIW, I agree that the descriptions of 'explosive bullets' are more likely to mean 'bullets that had explosive effects on hitting flesh and bone. I was reminded of this in the recent History Channel reshowing of technical innovations prior to and including 1914. There was a live demonstration of the power of MG bullets. Very explosive effects!

Robert

[N.S.Regt.]

Thanks all for your replies. Pte Martin was still being treated for his wound after his dicharge in 1919. The majority agrees with the explosive effect caused by a M.G. bullet and is most likley the case. I find it strange the doctors would call it a explosive bullet it must be the way they explained the effect of the bullet causing the wound.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[DrB]

I would agree with Ralph and Dave. The tumbling effect or the effect if striking a bone would give the appearence of being hit with an explosive bullet.

I don't believe they were ever issued in WWI to infantry to be used for that specific purpose. Atrocity stories abound from both sides and there were certain sick types that would modify their round for that use, but there are weird folk within and without the military.

A bullet moving at 2600 to 2800 hundred feet per second, striking flesh makes one hell of a mess.

I dressed a lot of wounds in Viet Nam on Marines and Navy Corpsmen and I would have sworn that the mess I treated was from an explosive bullet, but in fact, it was just the effect of a high velocity round on a mass of flesh. The M16 used by the US forces was a nasty little round as well, it loved to tumble after it struck flesh. Wounds by small arms are not 1950's movies neat little holes. (Or at least nice little neat "innys" and rather horrific "outys")

DrB

[Borden Battery]

In the 1960's my late Grandfather showed me his pistol and some bullets with the centre of the bullet hollowed out. He called them "dum-Dum" bullets.

Here is a quote I recorded on this item.

Private Richard W. Mercer (911016) "My pistol was a Smith & Wesson with six shots. You see, they gave us all pistols instead of rifles. Some of the fellows used to load "dum-dum" bullets in their pistols. They would tumble in the air and did more damage than regular bullets. We also used to keep some of extra bullets in a small leather pouch on our belts. I never saw a need for "dum-dum" bullets, in fact to don't think I ever fired them from my pistol."

Source: Dwight Mercer, Regina, SK, Canada

[lassuy]

While most militaries of the world would never issue a "dum-dum" type of round, they did get around the Haig convention by deliberately designing rounds that are inherently unstable in flight and will tumble easily upon impact. The British .303 is one of these, as is the modern 5.56 mm. Interestingly, the Italians had one of the more humane--if I can use such a term--bullets, the 6.5 mm Carcano. The small bore Carcano had a very long bullet length compared to it's bore size. This made the bullet very stable, and unlikely to tumble or ricochet. But any bullet, when striking bone, will produce an effect that could be called explosive. Take a look at the film of President Kennedy's assasination, which was done with the "humane" 6.5 Carcano.

[duckman]

A few other random thoughts to throw into the mix.

A bullet's effect is, in part, related to how much energy it transfers to its victim. High velocity rounds tend to punch a neat hole (exit wound rather less neat) but carry away much of their energy on exit. A tumbling bullet, or fragmenting (see below) will transfer more of its energy to the victim, and in general do more damage.

I have read suggestions that, in Britain at least, poor manufacturing techniques produced many batches of defective bullets early in the war. They were found to be very brittle and would readily shatter on impact. Fragments will transfer their energy more effectively than a single intact round, spreading the joy. Bullets will tend to shatter on hitting bone anyway, but these defective bullets made that more likely. Cue murmurings about illegal use of dum-dums. Have also read various claims of certain pilots filing crosses into the points of their next load. Will leave you to guess the name...

I have to think that a genuine explosive bullet - Pommeroy, Buckingham etc - hitting halfway down his forearm would have blown his hand off.

Marco (etc) - how do you fire a bullet blunt end forward? Don't know heaps about firearms, but I'm assuming you rip it out of the cartridge, flip it stick the point into the cartridge and crimp it down again? Strange thing to do...

[Guest]

There are claims in some circles that Barker was hit by at least one explosive bullet in his last dogfight. Like many stories about that particular fight and without wishing to discredit Barker, they seem difficult to substantiate.

Notwithstanding, Barker was badly wounded and virtually lost all use of his left arm, having been hit in the elbow. He was also struck in the left hip but the effects were less severe, though he walked with the aid of a stick for the rest of his life.

Just what is meant by "explosive" bullets in this case has never been adequately explained to me. Some have told me that they were regular bullets with a phosphorous filling in the base. I always thought that was tracer, which doesn't quite mean the same thing. A bullet which explodes or contains explosive constitutes a cannon shell in my opinion. It is perfectly conceivable, based on the medical reports, that his wounds could have been caused by ordinary high-velocity, rifle-calibre rounds.

I also think that some of this probably came down to a bit of heresay combined with a goodly measure of propaganda.

[NIGEL]

If he had been hit by a cannon shell, his lower arm would have been the least of his problems

[zephyr4]

Found this info on explosive bullets.maybe this is what the report refers to.

Tracer, armour piercing and incendiary cartridges were adopted by the British Government during 1915, explosive bullets having been approved for service in 1916. These rounds were extensively developed over the years and saw several Mark numbers. The last tracer round introduced into British service was the G Mark 8 round, approved in 1945, the last armour piercing round was the W Mark 1Z introduced in 1945 and the last incendiary round was the B Mark 7 introduced in 1942. Explosive bullets were not produced in the UK after about 1933 due to the relatively small amount of explosive that could be contained in the bullet limiting their effectiveness, their role being successfully fulfilled by the use of Mark 6 and 7 incendiary bullets which were of a less complicated construction.

If you look at this web page it explains the exsplosive bullet.

http://www.gwpda.org/medical/delorme.htm

[DrB]

From a US perspective, I fired incendiary, tracer and armor piercing rounds in the Marine Corps back in the late fifties, basically to fire up ammo from the Korean era I believe.

The incendary rounds were tipped in light blue, the tracers, orange and the AP, for use against soft skinned vehicles, was black tipped.

Now I believe "ball" ammo is routinely issued but tracers are still evident and extremely valuable to mg's. (Nasty habit of giving away your posit. though)

DrB

[Robert Dunlop]

I am pretty sure my Grandfather mentioned using tracer for some night shoots with the Vickers MG in WW1. IIRC, every eighth bullet was a tracer. They were used in indirect barrages. On one occasion, a distant crossroads was targetted and they would watch for sudden explosions that would occasionally light up the area.

Robert

[Gary Samson]

The Dum Dum bullet was banned by the Haig convention in 1899 and as far as I know no Army used them because the enemy could use the Dum Dums against them also.

In Old Soldiers Never Die Frank Richards writes in the chapter 'Trenches at Bois Grenier':

We could always tell when a man had been hit by an expanding bullet, which caused a frightful wound. Whenever one of our men got shot by one of those bullets, some of us would cut off the tips of our own bullets which made them expanding and then go on sniping with them. It would be difficult to decide which side used these bullets first, but one man of ours whom I knew very well never went sniping unless he had cut the tips of his bullets off.

Gary

[N.S.Regt.]

Thanks for all your interesting comments, Zephyr4's link was a new one to me which contained some good information on what ranges a bullet fired from caused what wound. 0 to 500 meters was to be the most damaging but I would think with the trenches as close as they were most gunshot wounds would be within this range.

Regards

N.S.Regt.