asdarley Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 Am preparing a talk on the men of the village who were killed in the Great War. Looking at Private 8629 Charles Warr 1st Btn Devonshires. KIA 30:10:1914 buried Cabaret Rouge Cemetery. Charles was a regular soldier in barracks at Tidworth for the 1911 census, stationed in Jersey when war broke out. I assume he is burnt records as cannot find his attestation card. But has a medal card on which it records clasp/2/2681 Can anyone enlighten me about this? Does the 2 refer to area of operations? Perhaps not as that was the Balkans. Help appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 as far as I know its just an admin reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 4 May , 2014 Share Posted 4 May , 2014 But has a medal card on which it records clasp/2/2681 Can anyone enlighten me about this? Does the 2 refer to area of operations? Perhaps not as that was the Balkans. Help appreciated! Private Warr landed in France on 22nd August, 1914, with his Battalion. Initially his Battalion defended Lines of Communications, but after the retreat from Mons, they were transferred to the 3rd Division. At the end of September, 1914 the 1st Devons transferred to the 5th Division which participated in the Battle of La Bassee when Pte Warr was killed. He was awarded the 1914 Star, which was only issued for service in France and Flanders, prior to the 22nd November, 1914. The clasp is a sew on bar marked "4th Aug - 22nd Nov 1914" which indicates that the recipient served "under fire". Being killed or wounded in action, prisoner of war, or received gallantry award etc would immediately qualify for the clasp, but Pte Warr probably became entitled to the clasp prior to his death. Whereas the 1914 Star was automatically issued to Other Ranks, the clasp had to be applied for. (Officers had to apply for both). Accordingly, not all those entitled bothered to apply which makes 1914 Stars with original bars quite desirable. When the ribbon was worn by itself (ie a ribbon bar), by survivors, a silver rose was worn to indicate the clasp. As Coldstreamer states the code on the Medal Issue Card is purely an administrative code and has nothing to do with the "theatre of War first entered" which could only be France and Flanders due to the issue of the 1914 Star. I hope this helps - I am quite tired so it may be as clear as mud Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalredcross Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 I believe the Clasp 2/xxxx is a reference to a decision made about eligibility for the clasp. Perhaps there was some question about this. The normal reference on a MIC is "C & R". NGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdarley Posted 5 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Thanks Sepoy for the detailed reply.Muddy it is not! As Charles was KIA 30:10:14 I believe in the village of Festubert when the Devons relieved 1st Manchesters in the line. Sadly, 11 days after his brother was killed on the Radinghen - Fromelles road. I wonder who applied for the clasp? I doubt Charles had the time! Thanks again Coldstreamer and Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I believe the Clasp 2/xxxx is a reference to a decision made about eligibility for the clasp. Perhaps there was some question about this. The normal reference on a MIC is "C & R". NGG I wondered about the difference too. From transcribing a battalion roll for the 1914 Star there seems to be a pattern. Where survivors have had to apply for the Clasp & Roses they have written on the roll, and MIC, "C+R" with date of application and other administrative codes. If a man died he only has the "clasp/2/xxxx" written on the MIC, but not on the medal roll, which suggest the next of kin received them without needing to apply. Cheers, Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 AO361 dealing with issue of the clasp established that the C.O of the units that qualified for the clasp had to submit a list of qualifying officers and men still serving. So I presume that they also prepared a sub-list of the fallen who qualified. Men not serving had to apply - and many didn't. It's a nice courtesy - and I suppose practical - to allow the relatives of the fallen to avoid this paperwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 AO361 dealing with issue of the clasp established that the C.O of the units that qualified for the clasp had to submit a list of qualifying officers and men still serving. So I presume that they also prepared a sub-list of the fallen who qualified. Men not serving had to apply - and many didn't. It's a nice courtesy - and I suppose practical - to allow the relatives of the fallen to avoid this paperwork. Trouble is, many Aug-Nov 1914 casualties didn't receive clasps (how much more 'within range of enemy guns' could you get?!). I dare say that there were variations between regiments, but it has always appeared to me that the requirement for an application still applied even in the event that a man had died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Trouble is, many Aug-Nov 1914 casualties didn't receive clasps (how much more 'within range of enemy guns' could you get?!). I dare say that there were variations between regiments, but it has always appeared to me that the requirement for an application still applied even in the event that a man had died. Yes, I guess this did very much rely on the diligence of the officers and regiment concerned . Presumably some relatives would have picked up on the possibility of applying. Plus relatives may have satisfied themselves with a "tailors copy" I understand that 350,000 official clasps were provided by the Royal Mint. I haven't seen any figures regarding how many might have been issued immediately and then over subsequent years, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 The latest application by a former soldier I've seen was 1974, incidentally the same year as the last battalion reunion. I wonder if he was only just made aware of the clasp at the meet up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 The latest application by a former soldier I've seen was 1974, incidentally the same year as the last battalion reunion. I wonder if he was only just made aware of the clasp at the meet up? The latest case of the clasp being issued that I've come across was made in 1983. The man applied for a replacement set of medals to wear at his wedding anniversary (it was a significant anniversary, Golden or something, and he obviously wanted to look his best) and the AMO issued the medals plus clasp despite the fact that he had previously only been issued with a 14 star trio. His unit was nowhere near the front line having arrived in France on about 4th Nov 1914, and they weren't on the official list of units that were entitled to the clasp. I suspect that the AMO clerk simply assumed that the medal and clasp automatically went together, or couldn't be bothered checking whether his service papers still existed (any claims made post-1940 must have been granted without any questions, I suspect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 10 January , 2015 Admin Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I can't comment on the reference Clasp/2/xxxx, other than to note that one clasp was issued to be attached to the medal riband and two (2) roses to be worn on the ribbons; but there were a number of official announcements concerning the issue of the Star. On December 10th 1917, shortly after the medal was approved by the King in October, it was announced, 'Officers and soldiers now serving will receive their Stars by presentation in due course. Officers not now serving and legatees or next-of-kin of dead officers will receive their Star from the War Office. Discharged soldiers and the legatees of next of kin of dead soldiers will receive the Star from the Officer in Charge of Records concerned. Immediately the Star is ready for issue to a regiment or corps an announcement will be made in the Press.' There then followed a stricture against contacting the Records Office. In reality this meant that due to the unavailability of the decoration that the announcement for the DCLI, Hampshire, Wiltshire, Devonshire Regiments Somerset Light Infantry and the Dorsets, for example was not made until May 1919 when no doubt many of those entitled had been discharged as time served. The announcement went on to describe where application should be made for the Star. The clasp (and roses) were not authorised until October 1920 and on the 1st November it was announced application forms for those who were entitled to the clasp were available at the Post Office and were to be completed in accordance with the instructions. Applications made otherwise than on these forms would be ignored. The Admiralty explicitly stated 'clasps earned by officers and men who have died will be issued to their legatees or next-of-kin entitled to receive them.' I can find no similar announcement from the War Office but as Ian notes it seems practical,especially as they would already have issued the medal and would have the paperwork to hand although obviously there would be fewer recipients administered by the Admiralty. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I once bought a trio to an O.C which featured both the bar and one of the roses on the Star medal ribbon! It certainly looked fancy albeit incorrect use of the rose. Also suspect he might have got some flak if he had put them up like that at an OCA parade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 10 January , 2015 Admin Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I once bought a trio to an O.C which featured both the bar and one of the roses on the Star medal ribbon! It certainly looked fancy albeit incorrect use of the rose. Also suspect he might have got some flak if he had put them up like that at an OCA parade! If he only had one suit he probably wondered what he was supposed to do with the second rose! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 12 January , 2015 Share Posted 12 January , 2015 If he only had one suit he probably wondered what he was supposed to do with the second rose! Ken Yes a shame to waste it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now