Greek WWI bayonets - the Y 1878/1903/1914

[trajan]

This is an interesting series of Greek bayonets as used in WWI (and by the Greeks in the Turkish War of Independence!) - the Greek (Gras) Y 1878 bayonets converted to fit the Mannlicher Schoenauer or Τυφέκιον Μάνλιχερ rifle that was adopted by the Greek army in 1903.

For obvious reasons, the Greeks were always keenly attuned to what weapons the Ottoman army were adopting and so after the Ottomans started to use Mauser type rifles in 1887 and more pressingly the Mauser 1890, the Greek government began looking for a replacement for the Y 1878, the Greek version of the single shot black powder Gras 1874 rifle then in service use. Their eventual choice was the rifle we know as Mannlicher-Schönauer Y (for ‘model’) 1903, the initial 130,000 rifles and carbines being the main rifle of the Greek forces during the Balkan wars they became involved in. As far as I can gather (the sources are a bit confused and I need to do some more reading!) these rifles were initially supplied with a short knife bayonet, the Y 1903, but when the Greeks ordered 50,000 or so of an improved version of the rifle, the Mannlicher-Schönauer Y 1903/14 in early 1914, these were provided with a long T-backed sword bayonet. But then the GW began and Greece initially decided to remain neutral, so ending the supply of these rifles and bayonets.

This halt in the supply of long bayonets for the Y 1903/1914 rifle seems to explain the introduction of what I shall term for the time being (I have not yet found or identified an official Greek designation) the Y 1878/1903/1914 bayonet. This is an 1878 Gras-type bayonet (or in some cases a French 1874 bayonet) that has the crossguard and muzzle ring and mortice slot modified so that it can be fitted to a M-S 1903 or 1903/1914 rifle. The photographs here are courtesy of Hellasbayos, of GBF, and show a Waffenfabrik made and dated Y1878 modified in this way. And note that this is spine-marked Waffenfabrik 1877, one year before the official adoption of these bayonets, indicating that this example was originally part of a trial batch!

[trajan]

This second post uses photographs from Nick of GBF to explain the difference in the fitting of these bayonets, the higher muzzle ring being necessary for fitting to the M-S 1903 and 1903/1914 rifles, the first photograph showing the original Y 1878 fitted to the Gras-type 1878 rifle below the Y 1887/1903/1914 fitted to the M-S 1903 rifle, the second photograph showing the two types side by side. The third photograph is a taster, as it were, as I have not got my own examples ready for photographing! Of the three that I have two are modified from Greek Waffenfabrik issues, the third is a modified Châtellerault example supplied by the French to the Greeks after the introduction of the Lebel rifle.

[N White]

One of these, I need. Oddly enough, with all the Gras I have I have never run across one. Someday perhaps.

[trajan]

One of these, I need. Oddly enough, with all the Gras I have I have never run across one. Someday perhaps.

Next time you are in Turkey, I'll let you have one!

Now to serious matters...

Having started this thread I suppose I should show you my own examples of what I have termed (for the sake of no known alternative!) the Greek Y 1878/1903/1914 bayonet (the letter Y by the way from the Greek Υποδεπμα meaning 'model'. I am always loath to show examples of my bayonets as most of them come in pretty bad state and need lots of work on them to make them really presentable (as will be obvious when you look below)!

OK, these three are:-

1) Top, cleaned as far as I want to go (I like the patina on the crossguard!); spine marking ‘Waffenfabrik Steyr 1881’; no letter between the rivets on the crossguard obverse side (which I have seen on several Steyr Y 1878 bayonets); and traces of a hammered-out serial number between the rivets on the crossguard reverse (the usual place for the serials on the Greek Y 1878 bayonets.

2) Middle, a small area part-cleaned to reveal markings for cataloguing purposes; spine marking ‘Waffenfabrik Steyr 1885’, and a small ‘k’ just before the crossguard (I have seen this on other examples see post 02 above); a rather odd monogram – MJ or JM? Latin letters! - between the rivets on the crossguard obverse side (again, I have seen Latin letters here before); and serial number 1065 between the rivets on the crossguard reverse.

3) Bottom, part-cleaned mainly of blade and crossguard to reveal markings for cataloguing purposes; spine marking ‘Mre. D’ Armees de St. Etienne Auot 1877’; usual French inspection marks on obverse blade near the crossguard; no letter between the rivets on the crossguard obverse side; usual French inspection marks on the reverse crossguard tail but no obvious French serial number there; and a four-digit but illegible (at the moment!) serial number between the rivets on the crossguard reverse.

So, top two, Waffenfabrik Y 1878’s converted to fit the M-S 1903/1914 rifle, and the bottom one a French M.1874, converted for the same reason.

[apwright]

This is fascinating stuff, Trajan! Thanks! I'll certainly be viewing the local antique shops with a new eye in future ... once the financial crisis is over

Adrian

P.S. Υποδεπμα > Υποδείγμα

[trajan]

This is fascinating stuff, Trajan! Thanks! I'll certainly be viewing the local antique shops with a new eye in future ... once the financial crisis is over

Adrian

P.S. Υποδεπμα > Υποδείγμα

Thanks Adrian!

And especially so for correcting my Greek! I am ok on reading and even spelling ancient Greek transliterations of Roman unit titles, but not so hot on this modern stuff...!!!

I see examples of these converted ones at the local monthly antika pazari about once every three-six months or so, and the regular Y (Waffenfabrik) 1878's more often (there were two for sale there this morning). I have in the past managed to snag three of the short Y 1903's, from that source but I have never yet seen a single long Y 1903/1914 there... BTW, I'll be putting a thread up about these last two types at a future date.

Cheers for now,

Julian

[trajan]

I thought I'd put this one up - just advertised on local e-service. No mention of any inscription on the spine, but it's a Y 1878/1903/1914 type, the number between the rivets suggesting this was originally a Waffenfabrik Y 1878.

Trajan

[trajan]

Apart from the regimentally-marked P.1888 I got today I also bought another of these Y 1878's adapted to fit the M-S rifle. This is another Waffenfabrik Steyr, 1877, with the number '7781' between the crossguard rivets on the reverse and the Greek letter 'Γ' for gamma between those on the obverse.

This also needs a clean but what is nice is that the date and letter 'Γ' are exactly what are found on that excellent example shown in post no.1... So, I think that this one was also originally one of a trial batch sent to Greece before 1878, the year of the official adoption of the Waffenfabrik version of the Gras bayonet, which became the Υ[ποδείγμα] 1878.

Trajan