Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 I'd appreciate help in filling in a very brief account of the death of 2nd Lt Oliver Emanuel, Wiltshire Regt, KIA 25 Sept 1915, commemorated on the Menin Gate, and in the 1st Bn according to CWGC. What were the 1st Bn doing at this time? I have consulted the LLT and see they were at Hooge but would be grateful for a little detail if anyone has it. I already have brief details of his life - he was born Otto Emanuel to German Jewish parents, his father Max Emanuel a china and glass manufacturer and importer in London from about 1886 -1914. He attended Ascham or St Vincent's prep school in Eastbourne (hence is commemorated on the Ascham Memorial Arch) and Eastbourne College, changed his name to Oliver by deed poll in May 1914 and was a cadet at Sandhurst 1914-15. I cannot unfortunately access two sources which would answer my questions, a website called The Wardrobe which won't open, and a newspaper account on Ancestry which says he died at Hooge (I can't read the whole account because Ancestry meanly reserves it for more expensive subscriptions, which irks me as I have sent them hundreds of corrections over the years and feel I deserve a bonus!) If anyone can help I'd be most grateful. I may have to go to Kew to confirm details of a number of officer queries eventually but they are all different regiments and I'd like to get this man's account more or less done without it if possible. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Liz, The newspaper item on ancestry was a cutting of a personal classified ad., looks like an 'in memoriam', probably from The Times, from the Andrews Newspaper Card Index. It reads:- EMANUEL - Lieutenant Oliver Emanuel, Wiltshire Regiment, killed in action at Hooge, Sept. 25, 1915. In proud and loving memory - MOTHER, SISTER,and BROTHER. Handwritten across the bottom right corner is 25.9.1941, presumably the date of publication. Harry Edit - checking The Times archive, this notice was first published in 1927 and annually, with some breaks, until 1950, a total of 17 times, and the same wording each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Harry I've just inadvertently deleted my post while trying to edit it to take account of your edit! so to repeat: Many thanks, and especially for checking the Times archive and finding that this was a a regular notice from the family. The father had died in 1916, hence his not being included. Oliver's brother Manfred did not change his name for a more English one, but he was 9 years older, was working in the family business in 1911 and does not appear to have served in the army, so he may have felt less driven to do so. It would still be interesting to learn more of how he died - perhaps someone has the War Diary? Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Just a few snippets of info Oliver Emanuel from 2nd Lt to Lieutenant prior to his death here He is also commemorated on the East Ham Cemetery Roll of Honour (United Synagogue) here regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Thank you very much, Ray. I have also received the War Diary for the period from Glen and am most grateful to all three of you for your tremendous and speedy help. A couple of minor queries - Harry, were the 6 years when the notices didn't appear in The Times the Second World War years? or just random as far as an outsider can tell? And - the WD calls him 2/Lt. The LG recording his promotion on 5 August 1915 wasn't till February 1916 and states that he's been KIA. I think I've come across this kind of thing before, but I thought they'd call him by his new rank even though it hadn't yet been gazetted - was there a rule on this?. Anyway, I now have a much clearer picture. The forum to the rescue once again! Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Liz his rank is given as Lieutenant on CWGC ,SDGW and on his MIC His mothers last known address is shown on his MIC His star was impressed with the rank of 2nd Lieut , Victory and BWM , Lieutenant mother Alvine Pappenheimer Oliver's parents married in Islington in 1885 a shareholder of the firm Max Emanuel and co of 23 Fore Street London was an Alfred Pappenheimer a possible relative of his mother regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Hi Ray I was just looking up the Pappenheimers when I got the notification of your post! Having had my queries satisfied, as usual I'm curious to know more - I went through the LG entries and found that at the end of 1912 Albert Pappenheimer took over the company he and Max had been running as partners, by mutual agreement. Perhaps that was because Max was ill - he died in 1916. But I couldn't find the relationship between Albert and Alvina. (Is it just me, or is Ancestry getting less user-friendly?) They are bound to have been related though. And LG shows Alvina was a director of at least one company, which was wound up. The other odd thing I found on this trawl through the LG - even though I never found the one you posted for me above - was on p. 592 of LG 28694 of 24 January 1913: '2nd (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers): Otto Emanuel (late Cadet, Eastbourne College Contingent, Junior Division, Officers Training Corps), to be Second Lieutenant. Dated Jan 1st 1913', which surprised me, as he was a cadet at Sandhurst 1914-15 (under the name 'Oliver'). Why would he go to Sandhurst after being commissioned, and then join another regiment? I could not find his commission into the Wiltshire Regiment or anything else about him in the LG, however many differently-spaced search terms I used, but I've always had problems with it. If you find it do let me know. Yes, I had found the basic records including the MIC and that he was Lt - I was just interested that the War Diary for September 1915 still called him 2/Lt. Have you got his medals, then? Thanks again for all your help. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 (Have you got his medals, then?) No, I am no medal collector Although I am the present custodian of my grandfathers MM and trio which will eventually be passed down on my demise regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Liz, First, I have checked The Times archives for the 'In Memoriams' for Oliver Emanuel. I had checked first by using the search engine which threw up the previously posted list of advertisements with gaps in the years. So I have now checked the individual pages for years where there were gaps, and for earlier, and later years. I can confirm that the 'In Memoriam' notices were posted continuously from 1916 to 1952, inclusive. I also checked in The Times series of obituaries of 'Fallen Officers'. The following was published for Oliver Emanuel on Saturday, October 2 1915:- SECOND LIEUTENANT OLIVER EMANUEL, Wiltshire Regt., younger son of Mr. and Mrs. Max Emanuel, 28, Belsize-park, N.W., was born on June 29, 1897. He was educated at Eastbourne College and Lausanne; he was a member of the Cadet Corps at the College and became a second lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers. He was serving near Southampton at the outbreak of war and was promoted lieutenant shortly afterwards. In the meantime he received a cadetship at Sandhurst, and was gazetted to the Wiltshires on March 19. Ten days later he left for France. He was commissioned as Second Lieutenant into the Wiltshire Regt. as a Gentleman Cadet from the Royal Military College, dated 17th March 1915 (not 19th as stated in his obit above). http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29102/pages/2633 Could not see a gazette notification for the promotion to Lieutenant, shortly after the outbreak of war, mentioned in the obit. Possibly 'acting' and not published in the London Gazette? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2014 This is brilliant stuff, Harry, especially as I have had a problem getting back into The Times (I do it via the library website, which seems to have changed its password requirements!) and was going to have to wait till Monday to find out what they're up to. To have found out that they put the notice in every year from 1916 to 1952 is wonderful. In addition, that obituary (which never came up either when I searched before - I don't understand why) links several aspects of his career that weren't entirely clear before, and the Lausanne bit is news. I am still a bit puzzled that he went to Sandhurst after being commissioned and spending about eighteen months in the Royal Fusiliers, but at least it's confirmed that he did. Yes, perhaps that promotion they mention was 'acting'. I note that the obit calls him Second Lieutenant - he was definitely Lieutenant when he died, but not yet gazetted, and as I observed, they weren't using his new rank in the WD. All very interesting and much more than I expected to find out today. Liz (Have you got his medals, then?) No, I am no medal collector Although I am the present custodian of my grandfathers MM and trio which will eventually be passed down on my demise regards Ray Nor me, Ray, and I haven't even got my relatives' medals. I just thought perhaps you had from the way you described them. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Liz, First, I have checked The Times archives for the 'In Memoriams' for Oliver Emanuel. I had checked first by using the search engine which threw up the previously posted list of advertisements with gaps in the years. So I have now checked the individual pages for years where there were gaps, and for earlier, and later years. I can confirm that the 'In Memoriam' notices were posted continuously from 1916 to 1952, inclusive. I also checked in The Times series of obituaries of 'Fallen Officers'. The following was published for Oliver Emanuel on Saturday, October 2 1915:- SECOND LIEUTENANT OLIVER EMANUEL, Wiltshire Regt., younger son of Mr. and Mrs. Max Emanuel, 28, Belsize-park, N.W., was born on June 29, 1897. He was educated at Eastbourne College and Lausanne; he was a member of the Cadet Corps at the College and became a second lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers. He was serving near Southampton at the outbreak of war and was promoted lieutenant shortly afterwards. In the meantime he received a cadetship at Sandhurst, and was gazetted to the Wiltshires on March 19. Ten days later he left for France. He was commissioned as Second Lieutenant into the Wiltshire Regt. as a Gentleman Cadet from the Royal Military College, dated 17th March 1915 (not 19th as stated in his obit above). http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29102/pages/2633 Could not see a gazette notification for the promotion to Lieutenant, shortly after the outbreak of war, mentioned in the obit. Possibly 'acting' and not published in the London Gazette? His MIC clearly states that the BWM and VM were issued named to Lieutenant, so an entry must appear in the L.G. for this. I have come across several instances where officers were promoted in rank following their deaths, but the promotion was ante-dated to a date prior to their deaths in the same L.G. entry, hence the higher rank is shown on their medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Yes, it does appear, Robert - for his promotion to Lieutenant in the Wiltshire Regiment August 1915, the month before he died, in the LG of Feb 1916 linked to by Ray in #4. If in fact this was antedated at the time when it was gazetted as you say, but not really done in August, this explains why he was called Second Lieutenant in The Times and in the WD - thanks. What we haven't found is any mention of a promotion to Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers in about July 1914 as stated by the Times obituary Harry has given in #9. It would make his going to Sandhurst even odder, wouldn't it? Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 1 February , 2014 Share Posted 1 February , 2014 Yes, it does appear, Robert - for his promotion to Lieutenant in the Wiltshire Regiment August 1915, the month before he died, in the LG of Feb 1916 linked to by Ray in #4. If in fact this was antedated at the time when it was gazetted as you say, but not really done in August, this explains why he was called Second Lieutenant in The Times and in the WD - thanks. What we haven't found is any mention of a promotion to Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers in about July 1914 as stated by the Times obituary Harry has given in #9. It would make his going to Sandhurst even odder, wouldn't it? Liz Yes, I agree this would be the obvious explanation--there can be no other. I cannot help you with the Royal Fusiliers angle, although I suspect that this is almost certainly correct because I came across a very similar scenario a few years ago. The officer in question was commissioned from his school OTC directly into the DCLI as a 2/Lt (Non Regular Commission, probably Militia Bn) on 13th May, 1914. He was still serving at the outbreak of WW1 and was sent to France as a replacement on 5th October, 1914, where he was attached to the 1st Bn R.W.F. He was wounded at 1st Ypres on 31st October, 1914, with the 1st R.W.F. Following his recovery and deciding that he wanted to serve with a Regular commission, he resigned his commission on 17th February, 1915, and went to R.M.C.Sandhurst as a cadet. He passed out from Sandhurst in June, 1915, and was commissioned as 2/Lt in the 1st Bn The Hampshire Regt., on 15th June, 1915. Whilst serving with the Hampshires he was again wounded in August, 1916, and was promoted to Captain on 8th March, 1918. Sadly he was killed in action on the 28th March, 1918, and is commemorated by name on the Arras Memorial. So, it is certainly unusual for an officer to resign his commission in order to enter Sandhurst, but if the officer only holds a Militia or Territorial commission and wants to become a regular officer, then there was probably no alternative. I don't think that Emanuel had served overseas prior to making this decision--unlike the DCLI officer! Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 2 February , 2014 Share Posted 2 February , 2014 THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MARCH, 1915, page 2632 + 2633 War Office, 16th March, 1915. The undermentioned Gentleman Cadets from •the RoyalMilitaryCollege to be Second Lieu- •tenants. Dated 17th March, 1915 : — REGULAR FORCES The Duke of Edinburgh's (Wiltshire Regiment) Oliver Emanuel. Eustace Howard Hill. John Halsted Cortis. Guy Henry Wallis Holman.. Gerald Morton Stamford. Charles Francis Burgoyne Hodgins. George Bryer-Ash. Frank Nicholas Verran. Reginald John Allen Palmer page 2632 Here page 2633 Here Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 2 February , 2014 Share Posted 2 February , 2014 Liz, I should have looked at the original gazetting of Otto Emanuel before. He was not gazetted to the Royal Fusiliers but to The London Regiment, a Territorial Regiment - 2nd. (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) being the exact heading in the London Gazette notification. Different to the 2nd Battalion The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). The latter being Regular Army. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28684/pages/592 The general heading TERRITORIAL FORCE is on page 591 As Robert pointed out at post # 13 he would have resigned his Territorial commission in order to attend Sandhurst Military College as a Cadet, and take a Regular commission on passing out. He was promoted Lieutenant on 29.8.1914 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28881/pages/6810 He resigned this commission to attend Sandhurst on 12.9.1914 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28899/pages/7231 Hopefully should clarify matters. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 2 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2014 That is very VERY helpful, both - thank you. I did give the correct wording in my #7, I think, but failed to interpret it correctly, having missed the general heading on the earlier page. Interesting that he is called 'Otto' in these two notices, though he'd changed his name with a lawyer's notice in the Times in May 1914 - I suppose as he'd joined as Otto that was regarded as necessary to avoid confusion (probably why I missed them, forgot he might do that). So the obituary was correct, and this is all understandable...I would not have got to this point on my own in a very long time, let alone less than 24 hours, so can't thank you all enough. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 2 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2014 THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MARCH, 1915, page 2632 + 2633 <snip>. page 2632 Here page 2633 Here Regards Ray Thanks, Ray - that's the notice linked to in Harry's #9. I think now we have all the notices to be expected - all your help is much appreciated. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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