9th RWF Trench knife (Cleddyd)

[Cymro]

Dear all,

I am currently embarking on a research project on the 9th Royal Welsh Fusiliers Cleddyd (or Cledd) as bought and issued to the Battalion by Lord Howard De Walden in 1916/1917. I'm looking to tell the complete story of this extrordinary weapon if at all possible. As most of you will already know, I am a collector of anything Welsh ww1 and I acquired my first original knife (in rather tatty condition) many years ago from a North Wales family. This example had both the motto 'Dros Urddas Cymru' and the Felix Joubert makers mark on it (a J over an O). Since then I have acquired another example with only the motto on. In between I have seem many many fakes and no original scabbards.

That's the collecting bit done with. Now to the research and an appeal to all the Pals out there!!

I've read the RWF museum account of the knife and a member of this forum recently sent me scans of the relevant page in Anthony Saunders' book which gave the UK patent number. Many many issues remain outstanding however:

1) How many knives were produced?

2) Were they produced in both France and the UK?

3) Were they issued to all members of the battalion or just to machine gunners/trench raiders?

4) Were only the French, or the UK made knives stamped with the motto/makers mark or was this random...

5) Were they really based on the type of sword carried by Welsh soldiers in the hundred years war... a claim rebuffed by an article on the RWF museum web site but claimed in most other articles. Certainly such an intent would chime with Lord Howard de Walden's sense of history and penchent for collecting arms and armour.

If anyone out there thinks they could contribute to this research, I'd love to hear from them. I've never seen photographic evidence of the knives being carried by members of the 9th battalion - that would be fantastic. Also any information on variants and the life of Felix Joubert, the eccentric designer. Will the UK patent number help in any way andcould I find the French one. I'm currently writing to the museum at Dean Castle in Kilmarnock, the seat of the De Waldens to see if they have any surviving record. A receipt for x number of knives would be nice!!!

A long list of 'don't knows' but I've received such support and knowledgeable help from the pals in the past that I thought I'd run it past you.

Many thanks

Jonathan

4)

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Jonathan,

The IWM in London have an excellent example of this on display - have you contacted them yet?

Ian

[Cymro]

Hi Ian,

I've seen it there, but I haven't yet asked what they've got in terms of research material. I saw it a long time ago, and from what I recall it's a fantastic example with the scabbard.

Another port of call - thanks Ian

J

[Max Poilu]

Jonathan,

Cannot help you with your research other than what is in Saunders 'Dominating the Enemy' as you noted. But out of interest I have this (terrible!) picture taken a few years ago of the IWM knives and clubs showing the Joubert:

[Max Poilu]

Jonathan, I suspect you have the Saunders info but perhaps for the benefit of others:

Further, to summarise Saunders:

Weapon based on an ancient Welsh sword - the Cledd.

Designed by Joubert and manufactured by his company. Some marked Joubert et Cie - suggests it was manufactured in France. 2 ft long, 17.5 inch elliptical blade, 3 inches wide at broadest.

Total manufactured unknown, not large numbers (?).

Issued to machine-gunners and bombers from trench stores as required, not general issue.

[Cymro]

Giles,

Thanks so much for the pic - its as I remember it - a cracking example with an original scabbard - great shot too - it shows the sheer size of the weapon. Yes, I do have the Saunders info. I'm going to try to see if I can get a little deeper and comfirm or otherwise what he says in his excellent book.

Thanks again - great work!

J

[Guest Hill 60]

If I recall the Royal Armouries have an example on display.

[Cymro]

Thanks Lee, I'll get in touch with them.

J

[Guest Hill 60]

Jonathan - I have just borrowed my Dad's 'The Journal of The Arms & Armour Society' (Vol XVIII, No 1 - March 2004).

There is an article by Martin J. Milner entitled 'The Welsh Knife: A Trench Knife Issued to the 9th Battalion, The Royal Welch Fusiliers', it runs from page 7 to 23.

There are brief biographies on Lord Howard de Walden (1880-1946) and Felix Joubert (1872-1952), which take up around 2 pages, and the notes take up 3 pages.

With reference to the quantity made I will quote from the paper;

The dozen or so examples I have examined have been constructed to a high standard, and are uniform in appearance. It has not been possible to determine the number made or the manufacturer, although a RWF officer who owned one considered that Wilkinson Sword made about 200 knives.There is a mention in notes on this comment - 'Major J. L. Parker, papers in the Welsh Knife file RWF Museum'.

Wilkinson Sword last made a Welsh Knife in 1981 for the Welsh Rugby Union for the celebration of their centenary. This was embossed with the name of each captain over the past 100 years.

In the acknowledgements he mentions the following, which might help you in your quest.

Trustees of the Royal Welch Fusiliers Museum Collection, David Bownes the Assistant Curator of the RWF Regimental Museum, Bruce Morgan the Museums Officer at Dean Castle (Kilmarnock, Ayrshire).

In his notes Martin also mentions;

Dean Castle, Kilmarnock has four Welsh Knives. One (MA/S133) is de Walden's decorated example, and is on public display.

The other three are in the reserve collection. One of these is in excavated condition (KIMMG: 1991.19.1). Two are in good condition but lack grip binding. One of these (KIMMG: 1989.4.1) has a plain leather scabbard and the other (KIMMG: 1989.4.2) does not.

Hope this is of some help, contact me off forum if you need more from the article.

[Muerrisch]

Quite aside from how many, having handled a couple, those welchmen must have been strong! A knife less likely to be useful in close combat is difficult to imagine, they are more for fancy dress than disembowelling in my opinion.

[Guest Hill 60]

A knife less likely to be useful in close combat is difficult to imagine, they are more for fancy dress than disembowelling in my opinion.

According to the article there is an unpublished memoir written by the Second-in-Command of the 9th Bn, H. Lloyd-Williams, which is the only direct reference known to the use of the Welsh Knife in trench warfare. In it Lloyd-Williams make reference to the '..and the Lewis-gunners carrying the strange knives furnished by Lord Howard de Walden..'

Three of the gunners were killed in this raid and their bodies were found later, stripped of clothing and the knives.

[Cymro]

Lee - I'm so grateful for your help. I really appreciate the time and effort you put in. I'll contact you off forum for details of the article. It looks as if 'my' article has already been written

Now to track down this Milner Bloke...!

[Guest Hill 60]

No problem

I've got you message and I'll get in touch soon.

[REGA]

I don't know if this subject is still open as I also have an orginal version of the knife complete with scabbard and also details of the orginal patent.

[Guest bigjon1]

I don't know if this subject is still open as I also have an orginal version of the knife complete with scabbard and also details of the orginal patent.

dear jonathan

I have just found this forum and thread and would dearly love to see this knife, are you available?

regards

jon

[Kevin O'Marah]

Jonathan could you pm me as I have a request for info?

Diolch

Kevin

[Guest bigjon1]

Jonathan could you pm me as I have a request for info?

Diolch

Kevin

hi kevin,

cant seem to pm on the forum,have just joined though (few days) my email is bigjongriffiths@hotmail.co.uk, mobile to follow if you require.

Diolch indeed

jon

[Andrew Upton]

cant seem to pm on the forum,have just joined though (few days) my email is bigjongriffiths@hotmail.co.uk, mobile to follow if you require.

Diolch indeed

You need the magic number of 5 posts before you can PM - stops abuse by spammers.

[monmouthshire]

You need the magic number of 5 posts before you can PM - stops abuse by spammers.

I have a Welsh knife and have attached a picture (I hope!).

There are fakes of these around unfortunately (made in the 1970s I believe). Tap the blade on a fake and it gives a dull "clunk".

In addition to the museums mentioned in the thread, there is a Welsh knife in the marines museum in Portsmouth and another in the RWF museum at Caernarvon (they also have 6 or 7 in the reserve collection but most have been refinished)

[clive_hughes]

Just to add a little to this thread.

In his war memoirs Ar Orwel Pell (Gwasg Gomer/Gomer Press, Llandysul, Cards., 1965) about p70-75, E.Beynon Davies a junior officer of the 19th Battalion RWF (Bantams) mentions the presence of the colourful character Major Arthur O. Vaughan, aka the writer Owen Roscomyl.

Vaughan, a Boer War veteran & DCM winner who had raised the Welsh Horse Yeomanry in 1914 was said to have joined the unit about the Summer/Autumn of 1916, sometime between their being in the Loos sector and moving to the Somme. Davies used to chat to him in the Line at night, and noted his popularity with the men (but not with the Top Brass, with whom his nationalism and unorthodoxy didn't sit well). He used to lecture the men cold-bloodedly on close-quarter fighting and the best way to despatch the enemy.

He also, says Davies, carried an unusual short sword based on a supposedly ancient Welsh pattern...Vaughan's biography Owen Roscomyl and the Welsh Horse (Palace Books, 1990) by the late Bryn Owen shows that he was on very good terms with Lord Howard de Walden and stayed with him at Chirk before the War. But no mention of any weaponry as such.

Bryn Owen states that Vaughan's war during 1915-17 seems to be somewhat shrouded in mystery and no mention is made of his being with 19th RWF - at the time he was supposedly an officer of the 15th (Reserve) Northumberland Fusiliers and 25th (Works) Durham Light Inf. He was appointed Lt.-Col. in the Labour Corps 1917 and gained MIDs plus an OBE and DSO in 1919 just before his death from cancer. Bryn Owen, curator of the Welsh Regt. Museum, was in touch with family members in compiling his book, but he died some years ago.

What all this might indicate is that De Walden let his friend and Welsh patriot A.O.Vaughan have one of the Welsh "cleddyfs" he had sponsored for the 9th RWF, and that he did wear it on duty in the Line with the 19th RWF during 1916. Maybe the 19th's War Diary might confirm his presence even if the Army List doesn't.

LST_164

PS- Have just been told that Maj. A.O.Vaughan signed the 19th RWF War Diary for Sept 1916, but doesn't appear much if at all otherwise.

Edited 25 June , 2010 by LST_164

[Kevin O'Marah]

Knife presented to RWF