Messines mines

[Fattyowls]

James

It may be that we have to park the explosive theory at Ontario Farm with my soil liquefaction idea. If it is any consolation I have been telling people that the Messines mines blew the top off the ridge until quite recently. I think the subterranean movements theory holds water if you will pardon the pun. In the diagram when a layer is described as moist I think this means semi saturated and wet means completely saturated. If memory serves the wet Kemmel Sands layer is what the Germans referred to as the Schwimsand because the water is under pressure. The mine chambers dug by the British, Canadian and Australian mining companies are all below this layer where it exists for that reason. As you suggest the explosions would have caused mixing of the layers above the Kemmel sands which I believe continues allow to the water pressure below to push the water up into the craters.

I think your analysis of the rainfall is correct; however given that July appears to be the wettest month (and July 1917 seems to bear that out) I think the craters may have filled quite quickly. Peter Barton in "Passchendaele" reproduces a German aerial montage of the craters showing them as dry while Ian Passingham in "Pillars of Fire" includes two oblique aerials showing the craters starting to fill. The sandy layers on the top of the ridge spurs such as at Lone Tree would soak up any rainfall which then percolates down to raise the water table and hence the level in the pools. I'm game for spending all summer out there measuring rainfall and rises and falls of the craters if some kind institution is prepared to give me a grant.....

I've done some digging around (another bad pun, sorry) for information about Lochnagar and the High Wood pool. The Lochnagar Crater is floored with the chalk that underlies the whole area and will drain really quickly; however the chalk is covered in a series of more recent layers. On top of the chalk is a layer of clay with flints derived from the weathering of the chalk and this is thickest on the ridge tops. Above this are layers of blown deposits deriving from the Ice ages when the area was tundra underlain by permafrost. I suspect that the High Wood crater is underlain by the clay layer which allows it to fill with water.

Pete

[Fattyowls]

Many thanks for that, I think it was in Peter BArton's book Passchendaele who theorises that because there was a chain of explosions rather than one simultaneous one this probably increased the disorientation of the German troops as these explosions were going off all around them and they could whiteness this.

Nick

Nick

I found the passage on Messines in Peter Barton's "Passchendaele" last night and the description is just as you say; I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like for the defenders. By a strange cooincidence when I was at Spanbroekmolen in early September Peter Barton was there with a Belgian film crew. I rate all of his books very highly and managed to tell him in person; he seemed genuinely pleased.

Pete.

[Peter Doyle]

Interesting geological debate, if I may say so (Speaking as a geologist, of course; interested to see my diagram reproduced, too). Some points: The explosion(s) would certainly have had a seismic effect (given that seismic sections created by geophysicists use explosions to generate the seismic waves). The scale available then would have been the Mercali. This measures the intensity of the seismic (earth shaking) effect - which would certainly have been at the upper levels. With regard to crater formation, this is complex (I was asked this yesterday at the NAM-WFA meeting). The Ontario Farm mine is certainly below a great deal of wet alluvial soils, and this would surely have had a material effect. Dissipation is likely. Standing water in craters depends on the ground water and sub soils. The 'water table' in the chalk was mapped out by the British during the war and was found to rise and fall mirroring surface valleys and spurs. It is also seasonal. At Lochnagar (and La Boisselle) it is deep, I understand. At High Wood, it is either closer to the surface, or there is ponding on surface soils. There is the possibility of more impermeable sub-surface clay-rich chalk layers, but this is not common. Craters in the Salient are more complex. A chapter on this is in Beneath Flanders Fields (with me as co-author)

(PS - as a fellow Evertonian, Pete, I'm interested in your interests...)

[Fattyowls]

Interesting geological debate, if I may say so (Speaking as a geologist, of course; interested to see my diagram reproduced, too). Some points: The explosion(s) would certainly have had a seismic effect (given that seismic sections created by geophysicists use explosions to generate the seismic waves). The scale available then would have been the Mercali. This measures the intensity of the seismic (earth shaking) effect - which would certainly have been at the upper levels. With regard to crater formation, this is complex (I was asked this yesterday at the NAM-WFA meeting). The Ontario Farm mine is certainly below a great deal of wet alluvial soils, and this would surely have had a material effect. Dissipation is likely. Standing water in craters depends on the ground water and sub soils. The 'water table' in the chalk was mapped out by the British during the war and was found to rise and fall mirroring surface valleys and spurs. It is also seasonal. At Lochnagar (and La Boisselle) it is deep, I understand. At High Wood, it is either closer to the surface, or there is ponding on surface soils. There is the possibility of more impermeable sub-surface clay-rich chalk layers, but this is not common. Craters in the Salient are more complex. A chapter on this is in Beneath Flanders Fields (with me as co-author)

(PS - as a fellow Evertonian, Pete, I'm interested in your interests...)

Peter

And me in yours; I signed in, looked at my content and thought surely not that Peter Doyle. I've been re-reading your book as this thread has developed because all of the interesting questions posed above have strained my geological knowledge (a course at Leicester in the late 70's and a layman's interest since) to breaking point. Admittedly that's not hard to do; II'll try and lay my hands on Beneath Flanders Fields as I'm rediscovering interests that have lain dormant for years. On the subject of High Wood I have looked at it from most angles in the last two years and wondered why it is there; the ridge seems fertile from the fields around it and it's in the commune of Longueval which already contains Delville Wood which makes me wonder if there is some geological reason why it is a wood and not a cornfield.

Pete.

P.S. Would it be ok to send you a PM about the Everton connection rather than take this off topic? I've also got a question about the Argonne/Verdun area which I'd like to ask.

[Peter Doyle]

Go 'ed mate

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Eathquakes have been caused with underground nuclear testing in Nevada.... clearly a much more enormous yield .......

[haworthnick]

I am once again amazed by the depth of knowledge on this forum, this thread has gone way beyond my knowledge that has only been gained from watching tv so I read agog at what i'm learning.

Everyday is a school day

Nick

Many thanks to all particapants

[Fattyowls]

I am once again amazed by the depth of knowledge on this forum, this thread has gone way beyond my knowledge that has only been gained from watching tv so I read agog at what i'm learning.

Everyday is a school day

Nick

Many thanks to all particapants

Nick

I credit the guy who asked the question in the first place. Fortunately the cavalry in the shape of Mr Doyle have arrived to keep the geological theorising in the realms of reality at least as far as I am concerned.

Pete.

[paul@bolton]

I would like to add my appreciation of the way this thread has developed. A very interesting topic.

I have also wondered why there are several sizeable woods in this area but concluded that this is not particularly unusual and is probably more to do with commercial factors in the rural French economy - now and then - rather than geology. Certainly, as we can read from WW1 accounts, the woods were managed with access (as today) along rides. I have always taken this to mean that they were used as a commercial timber resource although i could be wrong about this and the rides could simply have been to allow easier access for hunting. Haven't I also read that Bois de Fourcaux (High Wood) means something to do with pitchforks which might give an indication of its original economic use?

On a side issue, I believe we should award Pete (Fattyowls) the title of 'punmeister of the week'. His belief that the 'subterranean movements theory holds water' and his continuing to do 'some digging around' (both acknowledged by himself admittedly) have now been joined by his admission that his interests 'have lain dormant for years'.

Obviously, there is a rich vein of geological gold lying just below his surface

Paul

[haworthnick]

i thought Bois de Fourcaux meant "Raven Wood" or was that the German name for High Wood?

[paul@bolton]

Nick

I've heard both. Also that Bois Fourcaux should actually be Bois Foureaux.

Google translate isn't any help, nor is my French/English dictionary.

Paul

[Fattyowls]

i thought Bois de Fourcaux meant "Raven Wood" or was that the German name for High Wood?

There is a French movie called Le Corbeau which is a translation of The Raven; this would make les Corbeaux the Ravens. Martin Middlebrook's "The Somme Battlefields" describes High Wood as Bois de Forceaux and he translates this as Raven Wood. I'm wondering if there is a Picardy dialect or Old French thing going on here. Certainly this has come up before and confirms Paul's suggestion about pitchforks:

1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=163181

[Fattyowls]

On a side issue, I believe we should award Pete (Fattyowls) the title of 'punmeister of the week'. His belief that the 'subterranean movements theory holds water' and his continuing to do 'some digging around' (both acknowledged by himself admittedly) have now been joined by his admission that his interests 'have lain dormant for years'.

Obviously, there is a rich vein of geological gold lying just below his surface

Paul

Paul

The really scary thing is I don't realise I'm doing it; the first two I spotted when proofreading but couldn't think of an alternative and left in for comic effect. The third just crept in there; it's the product of thinking on an empty mind.......

Pete.

[paul@bolton]

Sedimentary, my dear Watson

[haworthnick]

As I am no longer able to comment on this thread I'll just bury my head in the (running) sands!

Nick

[Peter and Ellen]

Fattyowls,

Magnificent job you have done with giving us the goelogist's underlying soil/clay substrata.

Absolutely fascinating. I supposed we all took the easy way and thought it was just blue clay under the mines.

Thanks, Peter

[Fattyowls]

Fattyowls,

Magnificent job you have done with giving us the goelogist's underlying soil/clay substrata.

Absolutely fascinating. I supposed we all took the easy way and thought it was just blue clay under the mines.

Thanks, Peter

Peter

I really appreciate your comments; it's been really useful for me too and I have been fortunate to have a copy of Peter D's book to keep me from coming out with downright lies. One thing is sure; even with gag writers like the Bolton posse I'm not going to be able to make a living with a geology based comedy routine. Hope all is well in the fair city of Arras; I'll buy you a beer next time I'm on the Place d'Heroes.

Pete.

[paul@bolton]

Just a pity that Arras doesn't have a Hard Rock Cafe...

Paul

[Herekawe]

It is amazing what you can learn just loitering around the Forum. Next time I am in that area I am going to have a closer look.

James

[Fattyowls]

It is amazing what you can learn just loitering around the Forum. Next time I am in that area I am going to have a closer look.

James

James

Me too; there are so many things I want to look at in detail both around Mesen and further south in the Lys valley. However it occurred to me last night that we actually have some data on water levels at our fingertips. I was looking again at Centurion's photograph of the Peace Pool and comparing it against one I took from the same spot at the beginning of September and I think the water level may have dropped since I took mine. We have your photograph from July and I know from another post that the forum is recommending Nuke goes there at the end of this month so he may get a shot at a relatively unusual time. I suspect if we put out a request we could get lots of pictures at different times of the year because it's such an iconic location.

Pete.

P.S. Mine isn't a great photo but at least it's got the Belgian documentary producer in it for a sense of scale and the water surface isn't sloping for a change.....

[Herekawe]

James

Me too; there are so many things I want to look at in detail both around Mesen and further south in the Lys valley. However it occurred to me last night that we actually have some data on water levels at our fingertips. I was looking again at Centurion's photograph of the Peace Pool and comparing it against one I took from the same spot at the beginning of September and I think the water level may have dropped since I took mine. We have your photograph from July and I know from another post that the forum is recommending Nuke goes there at the end of this month so he may get a shot at a relatively unusual time. I suspect if we put out a request we could get lots of pictures at different times of the year because it's such an iconic location.

Pete.

P.S. Mine isn't a great photo but at least it's got the Belgian documentary producer in it for a sense of scale and the water surface isn't sloping for a change.....

What a laugh - I did think about that. I though pity I didn't discreetly nail a piece of wood, preferably graduated to the side of the landing stage. Next time I might bring a hammer, nails, suitable wood and forum members could photograph it as they went past! Or is that going way too far?

I thought maybe there is an outlet pipe well covered in the bush which lets excess water out. But I walked around it and had not noted any outlet or leakage. Peckham might also bear close examination.

Anyway it has been good for a laugh.

James

[Peter and Ellen]

Peter

I really appreciate your comments; it's been really useful for me too and I have been fortunate to have a copy of Peter D's book to keep me from coming out with downright lies. One thing is sure; even with gag writers like the Bolton posse I'm not going to be able to make a living with a geology based comedy routine. Hope all is well in the fair city of Arras; I'll buy you a beer next time I'm on the Place d'Heroes.

Pete.

Hey Pete,

You may have to drink mine for me as we are about to head back to Oz to chase the sunshine. Finished my last tour yesterday and it was very cold, wet and, very muddy out in the fields at Fromelles. How lucky we are in that we can get back into a nice warm car afterwards, something they could not do. Days like yesterday really brings home, the suffering that they had to endure.

Back in April.

Best regards, Peter

[Fattyowls]

Amongst the many interesting colour photographs in

is this one of a Messines mine; it doesn't say which one but it does give some sense of the scale. We can rule out Ontario Farm but that just leaves the other 18 to choose from.

[haworthnick]

Many thanks for that, it certainly brings home the scale of the mines and what it must have been like when they all went off at pretty much the same time

Nick