Execution Methods

[Gareth Davies]

In the Osprey Campaign book (No 177) on Chateau Thierry there is an account of some 30 or more Germans dressed as French surgeons with Red Cross armbands who having gained entry to the American trenches, overpowered the sentries and enabled German storm troopers to advance against the support positions. Eleven of the Germans were captured, including some of the impostors, and these men were executed the following morning with grenades.

How many other accounts are there of Germans getting through Allied lines using disguises (visual or voice)?

Were there any rules on the method of execution?

Was using grenades in executions commonplace or was this likely to have been a one off?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Gareth

"Executed the following morning" looks like summary punishment without legal process. I very much doubt that the use of grenades for this purpose was ever part of the official process of any of the combatants. It would have been an uncertain method and, on cost grounds alone, half a dozen rifle bullets aimed at a pinioned man would have been preferable.

Ron

[Gareth Davies]

Ron - Yes. It would indeed be an uncertain method, and very messy.

[SiegeGunner]

Even substituting 'stretcher bearers' or 'medical orderlies' for 'surgeons', the story seems eminently implausible (although somewhat reminiscent of the Germans who impersonated American MPs during the Battle of the Bulge). As for 'execution by grenade', I very much doubt it, not least because the 'executioners' would have had to bury the resulting mess .... unless the imposters were perhaps herded into a dugout and grenades thrown after them. It sounds redolent of the tosh in the film 'Company K', where most of the Americans were armed with sub-machine-guns and their trenches and dugouts were like bunkhouses furnished by cabinet-makers.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... some 30 or more Germans dressed as French surgeons with Red Cross armbands who having gained entry to the American trenches, ... these men were executed the following morning with grenades. ...

Fascinating. I presume that Osprey have given primary source details for these incidents. What are they ?

(Next thing, Sir, thirty French Surgeons turned up in our trench and ...)

A load of tosh, I'd have to suggest

Tom

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[phil andrade]

Somewhere I've read - perhaps in Middlebrooke's THE KAISER'S BATTLE - anecdotal accounts by surviving veterans, which mentioned German storm troopers who, because they were unwilling or unable to deal with badly wounded British prisoners, tossed grenades into dug outs that contained such wounded men. This was said to have been done in a casual random way by men who were in a hurry to move on, so hardly conforms to the pattern of contrived executions.

There is a lurid account in Richard Aldington's DEATH OF A HERO, describing an atrocious act by a German officer who deliberately placed a grenade under a wounded British officer's head. The outraged British troops captured the German and threw him alive into a burning ammunition dump. This is, of course, a novel.

The Chateau Thierry account sounds rather unconvincing.

Phil (PJA)

[Tom W.]

In the Osprey Campaign book (No 177) on Chateau Thierry there is an account of some 30 or more Germans dressed as French surgeons with Red Cross armbands who having gained entry to the American trenches, overpowered the sentries and enabled German storm troopers to advance against the support positions. Eleven of the Germans were captured, including some of the impostors, and these men were executed the following morning with grenades.

How many other accounts are there of Germans getting through Allied lines using disguises (visual or voice)?

Were there any rules on the method of execution?

Was using grenades in executions commonplace or was this likely to have been a one off?

I just read that, and I don't believe it. It's not footnoted, so I call nonsense.

Why use hand grenades to execute a captured enemy? Americans executed by firing squad or hanging. You can bet that execution with hand grenades was absolutely against American military law.

[Gareth Davies]

Thanks all. I will drop Osprey/David Bonk a line to see where he got the story from.

[ss002d6252]

This was said to have been done in a casual random way by men who were in a hurry to move on, so hardly conforms to the pattern of contrived executions.

It certainly sounds more like experienced soldiers quickly clearing a dug out before moving to the next - throw a grenade, quick check and then on to the next.

Craig

[Bombadier]

There was an article in the paper recently about how the North Korean leader was upset by one of his officers. He had the unfortunate guy secured in an open space and used for target practice by mortar crews until he was completely obliterated.

Nigel

[Tom W.]

Thanks all. I will drop Osprey/David Bonk a line to see where he got the story from.

I spent an hour online, looking up the Maizey raid of April 13, 1918. So far nothing.

It may be a quote from a newspaper account. Although I've included several such lurid accounts in my books (Germans putting British prisoners into trenches and killing them with flamethrowers; Germans using flamethrowers to spray Russian troops with acid, leaving only their lower bodies intact, etc.) I always footnoted them and made it clear that there was no other corroborating evidence.

[Gareth Davies]

I have received a reply from the Author. He says that sadly his research notes are not readily available but he does recollect that the incident was included in the personal memoir of a US Marine. The memoir doesn't provide any details of how the Germans were discovered nor does it cast any light on who made the decision to execute them, nor does it mention how the method was chosen.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I have received a reply from the Author. He says that sadly his research notes are not readily available but he does recollect that the incident was included in the personal memoir of a US Marine. The memoir doesn't provide any details of how the Germans were discovered nor does it cast any light on who made the decision to execute them, nor does it mention how the method was chosen.

Authenticity of the account is as solid as a rock then

Tom

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[Tom W.]

I have received a reply from the Author. He says that sadly his research notes are not readily available but he does recollect that the incident was included in the personal memoir of a US Marine. The memoir doesn't provide any details of how the Germans were discovered nor does it cast any light on who made the decision to execute them, nor does it mention how the method was chosen.

Ouch. Every time I've received the response that "my notes aren't readily available," I get the willies.

I've published three books on military history and will soon finish a fourth. I keep all my notes on CDs and my computer hard drive. More importantly, everything in my books is footnoted.

I once contacted an author because he wrote that the American 30th Engineer Regiment "Gas and Flame" had a flamethrower company. The reference was some totally obscure government document that took me months to locate. It said no such thing. Not even close. It couldn't possibly have been interpreted as saying the regiment had a flamethrower company.

When I contacted the author, he told me that his notes weren't available. They were in storage, and he never expected to see them again. Ever.

Very disappointing.

[Ron Clifton]

... the incident was included in the personal memoir of a US Marine.

In other words, someone "told it to the Marines." A classic recipe for authenticity!

Ron

[Gareth Davies]

Indeed!

[SiegeGunner]

As I said in post #4, this story is reminiscent of some of the vignettes in Edward March's novel 'Company K', which the author claimed was based on factual accounts of the experiences of 131 US Marines. If it is not in fact one of March's anecdotes, it is certainly of the same genre.