Chris Best Posted 16 May , 2013 Share Posted 16 May , 2013 Away from my references at the moment, but a question put to me, in order to generate a discussion point with a group planning a visit to Gallipoli, is "who was the VC winner at Helles [or elsewhere on the Peninsula] who shot, or threatened to shoot, men 'in the act of desertion'?" Any idea, Pals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 May , 2013 Share Posted 16 May , 2013 G R D Moor; here is one of several threads on him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 16 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2013 Michael, thank you so much - it looks to be the perfect link and offers a number of moral and tactical issues with which a good discssion can be generated. I'm so grateful. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 16 May , 2013 Share Posted 16 May , 2013 Hi Chris, Without meaning any disrespect may I raise a point on the moral issues - we are talking about a different era and men in combat. Not the done thing I know, but in action men don't always think about the morals but about what needs to be done to win the fight - and terrible things happen, sometimes accidentally and sometimes in the heat of battle. In an action where my patrol was being closely pursued by a very large force of NVA, one of my soldiers, in shock after fighting our way out of bad position, said he couldn't go any further. I actually threatened to shoot him rather than leave him behind which jolted him back into some composure. Probably a court martial offence and morally wrong - but at least he got out alive, and I am thankful to say he never pressed charges for threatening to shoot him. Best wishes Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 16 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2013 Chris, thanks for sharing your experience and you're right about different eras. Who was it who said that the past is a foreign country? They were so right. One of the most difficult leadership challenges in war is to constrain the urge to avenge. Conflict such as you faced was particularly demanding. One of the best officers I've ever known, in any Army, was a young RAAMC medic at Long Tan. The battle forged the man and soldier he became and I, for one, would have followed him anywhere. When I accompany groups on battlefield studies, I always try to pose questions of this nature. Classic is the experience related by George Davidson in his book (The Incomparable 29th and the "River Clyde", George Davidson MA MD Major RAMC, Aberdeen, nd [1919]) in which he describes how, on 26 Apr 15, he chanced on a group of Irish soldiers who'd captured a Turkish soldier and were making it clear he wouldn't be a drain on rations. Davidson remonstrated with the troops but their anger and thirst for revenge over-rode their moral responsibility. As Davidson walked away, they dispatched the Turk. Davidson carried on walking. At Arnhem, a private soldier describes how a bn sniper shot and killed a badly wounded German soldier who'd almost reached cover. The author was shocked. The following day, a one of his own bn medics was shot and killed by Germans whilst the medic broke cover to recover an injured German soldier close to Bn HQ. Cause and effect? These sort of scenarios often generate heated discussion, occasional balance and, invariably, a change of viewpoint amongst one or two in the group. Cheers for your input, Chris. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 17 May , 2013 Share Posted 17 May , 2013 Chris, Thank you for the understanding - and I am pleased that you raise these points for mature discussion on your battlefield tours. The killing of captured or wounded enemy soldiers is unconscionable conduct and ought to never be condoned. That is why training in the Geneva Convention is so important for young soldiers going to war. Nonetheless, as you rightly say, having seen mates killed alongside one, the urge for revenge runs strong in some men, most of whom are young and impressionable. I hope your tour goes well, and the discussion is robust. Thank you also for starting the never ending Turkish MG thread - it has been a marvellous experience and without it my views on the lack of machine guns would never have matured. Best wishes Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly Posted 17 May , 2013 Share Posted 17 May , 2013 Chris, G R D Moor just did not threaten to shoot his fellow men he actually did it and recieved recognition for doing so, Read wikipedia for a better understanding Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 17 May , 2013 Share Posted 17 May , 2013 On 18/05/2013 at 03:15, garrytrown said: Chris, G R D Moor just did not threaten to shoot his fellow men he actually did it and recieved recognition for doing so, Read wikipedia for a better understanding Garry Chris, This is a well discussed subject as you will see from the previous two threads. I would point you to the comments from Michael D. R. in the first thread that there was a lot lot more to this action than simply G R D Moor getting the VC for shooting at retreating men. His citation signed by Kitchener and George V reads: "That the Victoria Cross be awarded to 2nd Lieutenant George Raymond Dallas Moor, 3rd Battalion The Hampshire Regiment. For most conspicuous bravery on 5th June 1915 in an engagement to the South of Krithia, Dardenelles. During a very heavy heavy attack on our position by a large force of Turkish troops this young officer, with great presence of mind and consummate ability, rushed up and took command of a party of our men who were without Officers, and, leading them forward with great dash recaptured a trench which had been temporarily lost. The great promptitude of 2nd Lieutenant Moor's action was largely instrumental in preventing the whole line being broken." This last sentence is very important in understanding the significance of the award, as is an understanding of the events that took place during and around the attack of 4/5 June. The fact that GRD Moor was in temporary command of the battalion with other ranks in 2/Hants being down to around 200 by 5 June will provide some indication of the pressure on 88th Brigade at this time. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 18 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2013 Garry, thanks for that. It would be interesting to see the report that informed the Div Comd. Some might wonder, given the demonstrable and enduring courage of Lt Moor VC MC and Bar, just why he wasn't promoted further. Was it his youth (but cf Lt Col Bradford VC who, at 25, was promoted from lt col commanding a bn to brigadier). I note from the wiki link that Moor was born in Australia. The guy organising the tour I'm to accompany is an Australian! Oro pro nobis. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 18 May , 2013 Share Posted 18 May , 2013 (edited) I note from the wiki link that Moor was born in Australia. The guy organising the tour I'm to accompany is an Australian! Oro pro nobis. Moor was born 22nd October, 1896, in Ceylon. Son of William Henry Moor (Auditor-General, Transvaal, retired) and Mrs. Moor, and nephew of the late Sir Ralph Moor, formerly High Commissioner for Southern Nigeria. Some might wonder, given the demonstrable and enduring courage of Lt Moor VC MC and Bar, just why he wasn't promoted further. Was it his youth (but cf Lt Col Bradford VC who, at 25, was promoted from lt col commanding a bn to brigadier). A good question but it should also be recognised that courage does not necessary go hand in hand with an aptitude to command at senior levels. Moor was also 4 years younger than Bradford. It is worth noting, given the comment on Wiki attributed to Lieut-General Sir Beauvoir de Lisle that in a narrative of the V.C. action he said 'I have often quoted this young officer as being one of the bravest men I have met in this war'. Edited 19 May , 2013 by Marc Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Marc, regarding where Moor was born; Notwithstanding that his father was a senior official in the Ceylon Civil Service at the time, Snelling* gives the place as “his mother's sister's home in Pollington Street, St. Kilda, Australia” Is this not correct? *VCs of the First World War – Gallipoli, by Stephen Snelling, 1995, Allan Sutton Publishing Ltd., ISBN 0-7509-0566-2 .. … .. … .. … .. … .. ... Chris, regarding your “It would be interesting to see the report that informed the Div Comd.” Perhaps not exactly what you are looking for but nevertheless of interest, Snelling also gives the following quote from Lt Col A G Patterson DSO, MC of the 1st KOSB “who together with the 1st Essex were occupying the H12 salient on the left of the 2nd Royal Fusiliers and 2nd Hampshires.... 'There was a slight mist. At dawn heavy fire broke out and a message came through that H12 was lost. Almost at the same moment looking away to the right one saw what appeared to be the whole of our trench garrisons streaming back in hundreds to the old front line under heavy MG fire. It was a most extraordinary sight and I shall never forget the sound made by the troops coming back – a sort of long drawn-out moan......'” Snelling also quotes from the Hampshire regimental history “A disorganised mass of men was being pressed back against the Royal Fusiliers' left, where crowded and narrow trenches impeded any reorganisation of the defence. The situation was becoming critical, officerless men were retreating in confusion when Second Lieutenant G R D Moor. . . dashed across the open from the Hampshires' lines with a few men and stemmed the retirement by vigorous and forcible measures, actually shooting one or two panic stricken fugitives. He did not stop here: having rallied and reorganised the men in a hollow, he led them back to the lost trench and cleared the Turks out.....” regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Michael, I do apologise. I have just checked the relating BMD and you / Snelling are correct.. Pollington Street, St. Kilda, Australia. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Marc, No problem Snelling deserves the credit [my wisdom, such as it is, is in a direct ratio to the proximity of my book shelves] Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 19 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Michael, it seems you have a good [long] bookshelf. The 2 regimental extracts seem to offer strong evidence, supported by de Lisle's oft-repeated quote, that this tale is much more than a rumour. Marc, thanks for confirming the BMD evidence that the Wiki link showing Moor to be Australian by birth (see text under his portrait) is correct. I'll keep this knowledge in reserve for use if the Ozzie organiser of my forthcoming Gallipoli trip plays the 'Breaker Morant' card! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 19 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2013 A good question but it should also be recognised that courage does not necessary go hand in hand with an aptitude to command at senior levels. Moor was also 4 years younger than Bradford. Agreed, Marc, although the authors of "Bloody Red Tabs" comment specifically on the link of gallantry awards to officers who achieved high rank in the Army of the early 20th Century. But the fact is, Moor was not promoted, substantively, beyond lieutenant. Why not? Three gallantry awards, two of which specifically cite his leadership and grip in a crisis, surely could have earned him at least a company command. Were confidential reports routinely raised on officers and soldiers performance in those days? Oh, oh, that could open a complete can of worms! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 Chris, Perhaps it was not just his youth, but also his health According to Snelling, Moor was wounded c.28th April; perhaps 'slight' as there is no mention of evacuation He was however, evacuated suffering from exhaustion right after the June action, returned to Gallipoli in August, but was evacuated sick with dysentery 15 September He was sent to England and spent some time in hospital in London Moor joined the 1st Hants on 3 October 1916 and served with them until severely wounded in the arm 23 December 1917 Williams (his old CO from Gallipoli, now commanding 30th Div.) asked for him as an ADC because he could not otherwise get passed fit (he had not yet recovered the full use of his arm). Moor joined Williams 20 March 1918 with the rank of acting GSO, grade three He was only aged 22 years and 12 days when he died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 19 May , 2013 Share Posted 19 May , 2013 To add to Michael's post #16, Moor was also admitted to hospital on 1 March 1917 and did not return until April 1917 (Battalion War Diary). The Battalion War Diary also records that in October 1917 he was on a course of instruction at 4th Infantry Base Depot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 21 May , 2013 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2013 Michael, Marc - thanks, you could have a point. But, whatever, he was considered fit enough to go back to a division on the Western Front. Perhaps I might have a dig around at TNA for his P file next year. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacon Posted 4 October , 2014 Share Posted 4 October , 2014 Various debates may be agreed upon relating to moor's actions. He may well have taken the required and necessary action at the time to stem a PERCEIVED route. But the central issue here surely points at the award of the VC for such an action? There is something not quite right about this. Something definitely not quite right about a commander who would place such an action in the spotlight rather than leave it in the shadows where it belongs. My questions hang with the commanders at the time....not with Moor- the poor b*****d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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