Burial site

[madgarry]

Guys ime looking for the burial site of GROVE, JAMES PERCIVAL Captain 31/07/1917 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Panel 53 and 55. YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

In his military record there is a document from the xix corps burial officer dated 12/8/17 which states killed in action in the field Belgium 31/7/17

place of burial sheet 28 N.W, C29,C,90,50 any ideas where this was. He is listed on the Menin gate so his grave may have been lost or he was recovered later as an unknown,we would like to find out where his original burial was then cross check with CWGC to see how many bodies were recovered from that area at a later date.

[Chris Noble]

Hello Garry.

I have just had a quick look and someone no doubt will be more precise, but I make the location south-east of Wieltje, east of Warwick Farm.

Best wishes.

Chris.

[Roger H]

Garry

"X" marks the spot on this map dated 30/6/17. Courtesy of TNA Trench Map CD

Roger

[madgarry]

cheers guys, now we have the info, how do I ask the cwgc if any remains were found their, also Roger how did you work out from those numbers that this is the area and map.

[nigelcave]

28 NW is the map number (usually given with a date of publication, as given by Roger); 29 is the number of the large square - it is sitting on the centre point of four smaller squares; c is the smaller square identifying letter and the four figure reference is read, bottoms up, using the small vertical markers - nine across, five up. And there you more or less are, within a few metres.

[Chris Noble]

Good evening Garry.

If I may attempt to explain the workings of a Trench Map

First acquire the relevant Sheet/Map, in this case Sheet 28 N.W.

Basically the Map works in a system of grids measured in yards. Each Square, in this case C.29. is further sub divided into four squares lettered, clockwise, A,B,C & D measuring 500 x 500 yards. Once again, as regards your reference, C.29.c

Each of these sub squares is divided into ten. By a process known as 'easting,' you basically count along the bottom of the sub square, 9.0. in this case, then by 'northing,' i.e. counting up, 5.0. in this case, you have a reference.

Think I have that right!!!!!

There is what is referred to as a Body Density Map for this area that I believe is on the Western Front series of maps but I have misplaced the relevant disc. Maybe someone can have a look for you.

Best wishes.

Chris.

[madgarry]

Thanks guys,so I now need the body density map, would cwgc have this

[Phil Evans]

Garry,

Here is the body density map for C29

Phil

[madgarry]

Thnx Phil,ime assuming that the 17 in blue is the amount of bodies removed from Warwick Farm after the war

[Phil Evans]

Body density map explanation courtesy of Matthew (westkent78) via Norman (seadog) on this thread:

"The body density maps were prepared by the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquires (DGRE) in early 1919. They indicated to the Labour companies, about to start clearance, where bodies were registered as buried according to DGRE records. The blue figures do not contain any numbers from “registered” cemeteries within the square even if that cemetery is due for concentration elsewhere. Unburied bodies and bodies whose temporary burial was not notified to DGRE are not included."

So it is not a count of the bodies recovered, but of the bodies known / believed to be there, in order to guide those employed in the recovery. which I imagine in this case would include that of your man, whose body, if recovered, could not be identified.

Phil

[madgarry]

Thnx again Phil, would cwgc be able to confirm how many bodies were recovered from my map co ords and where they were buried as unknowns and if any were officers

[CROONAERT]

Body density map explanation courtesy of Matthew (westkent78) via Norman (seadog) on this thread:

"The body density maps were prepared by the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquires (DGRE) in early 1919. They indicated to the Labour companies, about to start clearance, where bodies were registered as buried according to DGRE records. The blue figures do not contain any numbers from “registered” cemeteries within the square even if that cemetery is due for concentration elsewhere. Unburied bodies and bodies whose temporary burial was not notified to DGRE are not included."

Phil

To add... they only record the numbers of those whose burials were previously reported to/known of by the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquires at the time the map was marked up. Other (later or earlier) versions will also exist (or they would have at one time anyway)

Personally,other than just for interest's sake, I can't see what real use these 'Individual Burial Location' maps (the term 'Body Density Map' is a relatively modern and, in my opinion, a bloody awful term!) are to anyone other than the graves registration units that used them/recorded on them at the time they were marked up, but that's just me I suppose as they do seem to have attained some sort of mythical status in some circles for some reason.

Dave

[Phil Evans]

Garry,

Now Dave has got that off his chest , the answer is that I don't honestly know. The CWGC will hold much of the basic information (as can be seen from some of the posts in the thread I linked to, if you have the patience to sort the wheat from the chaff).

I know what you are hoping for, but there are a lot of unknowns, such as whether his body was ever recovered; if it was, when; what cemetery was in use at that time etc, etc. A lot of effort was put into trying to provide a positive identification, so my feeling is that you are going to be hard pushed to get much further.

It doesn't stop you trying though.

Phil

[Chris Noble]

It is may be that your man may have been buried in what I will refer to as an isolated grave, i.e. not grouped, a possibility.

Like Phil has posted, further research may give something up.

Body Density, as Dave has remarked, a modern term. It may be worth while looking at known burials and the location of the cemeteries, however, some may have been concentrated far a field.

Good luck and keep on trying.

Chris.

[Phil Evans]

I think Chris's comment regarding an isolated grave is a valid one. I ran it through Geoff's SE and SDGW and could only find one other 9th Battalion casualty on that day and he is buried in a contemporary cemetery way behind the lines. Have you found out the circumstances of his death from the war diary etc?

Phil

[tootrock]

Reference Post #6

"Each Square, in this case C.29. is further sub divided into four squares lettered, clockwise, A,B,C & D measuring 500 x 500 yards."

This should be, clockwise, A,B,D,C

Martin

[pylon1357]

Reference Post #6

"Each Square, in this case C.29. is further sub divided into four squares lettered, clockwise, A,B,C & D measuring 500 x 500 yards."

This should be, clockwise, A,B,D,C

Martin

Martin, thank you so much for this correction. I am learning as I go along and for the life of me I could not figure out, how the marked block could be 'C' given the original explanation.

Other than that understandable error. I have learned much from this topic.

[madgarry]

cheers guys, I dont think ime going to bother the cwgc as hes still buried were he was originally or more likely buried as an unknown.