Birmingham and the Royal Field Artillery?

[E Wilcock]

Not sure whether to put this in as a query about an individual or a unit.

Can anyone suggest what is 1/2nd Warwicks Battery as of 16 April 1916?

The information comes from the service record of Gunner Hugh Stacey Salmon (TA) RFA

Service number 2807, then 836298.

Enlisted 1915 in Birmingham in 3rd South Midland (Birmingham) Brigade, Royal Field Artillery.

To France 24 March 1916

16 April to 1/2nd Warwicks Battery?

Then in the field, on the same date, to D battery. The D battery from Birmingham (now 242 Brigade RFA) were sent to 243 Brigade (my interest). Have found no list of these men as yet.

One must surmise he was in 243 Brigade throughout the Somme battle since in October 1916 he was transferred from 243 Brigade (dissolved) to 240 Brigade. Killed in action "C" Bty. 240th (South Midland) Bde. Arcade, Italy, 13 March 1918, on the same day as Major Reginald Pridmore.

After our visit to Giavera Cemetery, we researched Hugh Salmon in order to fill in some details for local historians in Italy.

[ianjonesncl]

In 1914, the Territorial Force units formed 2nd line units. The 3rd South Midland Brigade would have become 1/3rd South Midland Brigade, the 2nd line unit 2/3rd South Midland Brigade. The batteries which consituted the 1/3rd South Midland Brigade were:

1st Warwickshire - which would become 1/1 Warwickshire Battery

2nd Warwickshire - which would become 1/2 Warwickshire Battery

3rd Warwickshire - which would become 1/3 Warwickshire Battery

The brigade HQ and batteries were all based at Stoney Lane, Birmingham.

The battery in question was probably abreviated 1/2 Warwicks Battery. The Army List 1916 details 1/2 Warwicks as B Battery.

When the RFA re-organised in April / May 1916 many men were posted between batteries.

[David Porter]

If you refer to http://www.ordersofb...divs/48_div.htm you will see that:

"D" battery of 3rd South Midland Brigade (242 Bde) was newly formed in May 1916 before becoming "C" battery 243 Bde.

"C" battery 243 Bde was broken up in October 1916, with one section going to 240 Bde and one section to 241 Bde

I would guess that the man in question was posted overseas to 242 Bde in order to form a "D" battery but had to be posted somewhere else before this could happen. He was most probably a second line reinforcement up to that point. It is interesting that when renumbered in January 1917 he still retains a number allocated to 242 Bde despite being with 243 Bde then 240 Bde in the meantime. I expect you will find more like him if you search for adjacent six figure numbers.

[E Wilcock]

Why would he be re-numbered in Jan 1917?

Almost all my people in 4th South Midland who had not died prior to the reorganisation of May 1916 seem to have kept the numbers allocated then. Thus in the medal books the majority have 243 Brigade numbers even though the Brigade itself had gone out of existence and they were all transferred to other Brigades .

Men who were renumbered seem to have gained new numbers only when posted outside the RFA. In the veterinary service or flying corps.

Thank you for the suggestion of looking for adjacent numbers. I did that with the men who trained with 243 back in Coventry and were killed - To my non-expert eye, they did not appear to be serving together and died in random units.But I know less about the Birmingham Brigade than any of the others.

[David Porter]

All Territorial Force RH & RFA were renumbered as per ACI 2198 (Appendix 183) of November 1916 implemented on January 1, 1917. So all men serving in the TF artiilery would gain a six figure number on that date or shortly afterwards. 836xxx falls into the group allocated to 242 Bde (or 307 Bde if in 2nd line) which was 835001-840000. The renumbering didn't happen during the reorganisation of May 1916 but curiously (sometimes) refers to the unit they were in at that time. The numbers were issued by the Warwick Record Office in accordance with the guideline of the ACI which seemed to ignore the fact that some sections of each Brigade had moved on. It appears the renumbering was more related to the previous number which didn't change if they transferred to another TF RH or RFA unit. However it then became possible to have two people in the same unit with the same number so a new regular style series was adopted. I've looked at this aspect for several years and I'm still getting to grips with it, the renumbering is more fragmented than first appears and is more in line with the Record Offices' perspective rather than what is happening in the field.

[David Porter]

I have now located the record of Hugh Stacey Salmon. It actually says the posting to 1/2nd Warwick Battery was 8 days after his posting to "D" battery but they were notified together. I also find he was not in C/243 but A/243 prior to his move to C/240 on October 18, 1916. What is not explained is how he got from B/242 (1/2nd Warwick Battery) to A/243 between April and October 1916. There seems to be a posting left out as A/243 was actually D/240 up until May 18, 1916.

[E Wilcock]

Many thanks for the helpful replies.

The image (congratulations on getting that in a post) is the record that prompted my question.

I need to take another look in light of what you say and see if anything comes to mind.

As for service numbers. Thank you so much for the explanation. I am one of those who (it seems wrongly) assumed that the new numbers were handed out in Spring 1916 when the Brigades were renumbered. Looking at my lists and CWGC site I now see that men with the long numbers died after 1 Jan 1917 - I have one fatality from December 1916, but he died of wounds and may be had a number as was still living on 1 Jan. CWGC site shows RFA men killed on the Somme did not have the long numbers. This may explain my prolonged failure to identify people mentioned by surname or initial in the two war diaries we editing.

To turn to how the numbers were allocated, I used the medals list (book) at the PRO to make an MS Access database of 240*** and early 241*** numbers. Where the new numbers were issued to a man listed in the Rugby Battery (1914-15) with a previous short number I have the two columns alongside on my computer. The new numbers do not sort in the same order as the old. The new numbers suggest that the first numbers went to NCOs - seniority meaning a lower number.

The lower numbers appear to have gone also to men already at the front.

Thanks to your suggestion that we should search using service numbers, we did indeed last night and using ancestry identify two telephonists mentioned on 7 April 1915. I have spent so many fruitless hours looking for these two men in the past and was going to post today to thank you for the break through. The irony is that we did it using long service numbers - but examining the medal cards only for those with numbers lower in the sequence.

It seems wierd that the 840*** numbers belonging to 243 Brigade were issued to men who had transferred out of that Brigade the previous 18 May. But everything you kindly say fits with our lists (mostly on my site). In May 1916 men transferring both in and out of 243 Brigade are listed with short numbers. No wonder my databases note several queries and even duplicate numbers.

I need to read your post again carefully and have another think about just who got which numbers. I will post again if anything becomes clear.

Edited 5 January , 2013 by E Wilcock

[David Porter]

I used the medals list (book) at the PRO to make an MS Access database of 240*** and early 241*** numbers. Where the new numbers were issued to a man listed in the Rugby Battery (1914-15) with a previous short number I have the two columns alongside on my computer. The new numbers do not sort in the same order as the old. The new numbers suggest that the first numbers went to NCOs - seniority meaning a lower number.

The lower numbers appear to have gone also to men already at the front.

You have me slightly confused as 240*** and 241*** numbers in the RFA are from the regular series and were issued in mid 1917. Do you mean 840*** and 841*** ?

Yes, the new number sorts differently to the old as that is what Warwick Record Office seem to have done - which I forgot to mention. You may, however, get batches of Gunners and Drivers in alphabetical order and you might see a boundary between 1st & 2nd lines which you will not get if the renumbering was in order of enlistment.

Incidentally, I've just spent some time looking at drafts of TF RHA to the 2/2nd South Midland Brigade which became 306 Bde with numbers 831***. This filled in a lot of gaps for me. I would not have found them had I not been doing some searching in response to your query.

[E Wilcock]

O I am sorry. Yes I did mean 840*** and some 841*** numbers.

What with having to remember that our 4th South Midland became 243 and constantly forgetting which was which of 240 and 241 - it all gets too much for my elderly brain. Major Pridmore served in 243, then 241 and was killed in 240.

When you say 2nd line , do you mean people in the TA who remained in UK throughout the war? Or did some of these 2nd line men actually go out to France and join the units in which they had trained?

My husband and I have on our site a note saying that in Feb 1916, when all artillery Brigades were enlarged to three batteries, 4th South Midland were enlarged by the addition of D Howitzer Battery of 126 Brigade.

This information must come from either the war diaries or the history Before the Echos Die Away.

We have never tried to find out who these men of 126 brigade were. Do you think they were in the regular army? We dont know what to make of the Brigade number 126 since the Brigades (tho not the individuals) had new numbers in May.

Our web site was originally put up because fellow researchers (of 240 and 241) felt it would be helpful to people trying to trace their family involvement in the war, to have our lists of names on line. We did indeed start to hear from the descendants of people on those lists, but we heard more often from people whose grandfathers had been in 243 Brigade in France, but did not go out in March 1915 and thus were not among the people known to us.

Do you think that the 840*** etc numbers given were to the men who were actually in 4th South Midland at the moment it became 243?

I do know that not all "our 243 people" are in that sequence as some served in the Ammo column. First in the Brigade ammo column and then after May 1916 in the Divisional ammo column. The men I know of have numbers in the ammo column sequence.

I did not have the stamina to transcribe all the names and numbers from the medal roll for the Divisional ammo column, but the boundary seems to have been porous with both officers and men switching back and forth.

Are the RHA drafts you mention on line and do you think there is anything we should be looking at?

[David Porter]

When you say 2nd line , do you mean people in the TA who remained in UK throughout the war? Or did some of these 2nd line men actually go out to France and join the units in which they had trained?

For South Midland Brigade the 2nd line was 61st Division - see http://www.1914-1918.net/61div.htm - you have to factor this into your research as some 1st line men may end up here. Therefore 305, 306, 307 & 308 Brigade RFA are also relevant. Particularly 308 Bde if you follow 243 Bde.

Are the RHA drafts you mention on line and do you think there is anything we should be looking at?

Not yet, I've only just discovered them but 831623 to 831779 are ex RHA TF batteries that transferred on March 29, 1916 and went overseas with 306 Bde on May 23, 1916. Sadly, over 50% of service records for these men are missing. 126 Army Bde contained 2/1st Warwick battery RHA plus 2nd line HAC batteries but this happened before the February enlargement you mention so perhaps it was the previous brigade being disbanded and more likely regullar army.

[E Wilcock]

Once again thank you. We are footnoting diaries - and this information may be very useful. References to units positioned nearby (and their personnel) make sense to the diarists, but not always to us.