RE Rail Network, Ypres, 24 Oct 1917

[green_acorn]

A little discussed aspect of the war at Ypres is the crucial work of the RE Railway Companies in moving the food, ammunition, stores, personnel and the wounded. Indeed I had not seen a network diagram or map until I managed to acquire one last week. So here is the crucial part of that map which was produced for the ADGT II and was classified SECRET. The thicker lines are the Belgium and French standard gauge rail lines and the thinner lines the Narrow Gauge Railway networks, solid line, operational; dashed lines, in construction; dotted lines, planned.

I apologise for the the image quality, it was taken with an iPhone. But it will have to do until I finish unpacking here in my new home.

Cheers,

Hendo

[seaforths]

Hi,

Is this map from the WO 153 series? I ask because I have some of these for Ypres area for new trench, wire and railway construction. One of my granddad's cousins transferred from Infantry to RGA to RE and then WR but I don't know exactly what the latter entailed. Railways is sort of self-explantory but I have no idea what the Waterworks bit involved. I also wonder if they continued building the Railways networks and maintaining them to help the civilians for a while after the war to ease the suffering of the starving population. That was suggested by a Forum Pal as a reason for him moving into these units and that he was probably with the RGA for most of it.

It is an area I would love to know more about it might help me build up a picture as to what happened to him.

Cheers

Marjorie

[green_acorn]

Marjorie,

No not WO 153, I picked it up at auction.

I would think "Waterworks" was water purification and so on for creating potable water for the troops and horses.

I believe much of the light railway network was taken over after the war for reconstruction use by the population, but only after war stores and so on were removed from the area. The standard gauge military railway network mirrored much of the local system in order not to interfere with essential civilian traffic and vice a versa. I would imagine non essential military trackage was removed to reconstruct the destroyed civilian network, certainly a number of the steam locomotives were gifted/sold to Belgium and France to help them restore services.

Cheers,

Hendo

[seaforths]

Thanks for that information Hendo. I read somewhere that it took the French much longer than envisaged to put resources in place to distribute food and medical aid to the population and the Army assisted until they could but I gather a lot of the problems the French had to address were the transport links which as you said, were probably still in hands of the military moving and withdrawing stores.

I thought perhaps the waterways bit was something to do with transport via canals, rivers & waterways! I hadn't considered water-purification at all. I just assumed that would fall within the remit of the RAMC and the sanitation units and transport.

Let me know if you would like to see the maps.

Marjorie

[green_acorn]

Marjorie,

The Royal Engineers also ran the Inland Water Transport, you had mentioned "waterworks" which I interpreted as water purification, which the Royal Engineers were/are also responsible for. And as a side note my Great Grandfather served with RE (IWT) rising to the position of Deputy Director by the time he was demobilised in 1919.

I would also enjoy seeing your maps.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Phil Evans]

Hendo,

A great find.

Is it dated? From the clip you posted it looks very sparse up towards St Julien etc.

Even in low-res I can make out the names of some of the lines I have been trying to identify from the Canadian Railway Troops diaries. I assume that the red points are RGA Batteries.

Phil

[seaforths]

Hendo I hope you can see this but if you want a higher res copy you will have to pm me your email. I have another couple to try and squash down from nearly 2Mb. Also I don't mean to be ignorant but what does the IWT stand for in your Great Granddad's job title?

[Phil Evans]

Inland Water Transport (and Docks)

Phil

[seaforths]

I should have mentioned these maps fit in with the timescales of 3rd Ypres and are of that area. Here is the next one:

[seaforths]

This is the last one, for now anyway unless I discover any more. The job of the RE Corps seems to have been hugely diverse and I know from reading the diaries I have that they commonly employed whatever infrantry were in reserves or support that could be spared. I recall at one point they began to complain they were being used as navvies! Marjorie

[tn.drummond]

My Grandfather (Cecil Rowland Drummond) is believed to have worked on the Ypres Light Railway - family memory being what it is.

He was a lifelong Railwayman and his RE service numbers were 210412 then WR 261785. He was hoiked out of the Navy after enlisting with his brother in 1914 and allocated to the Railways as reserved occupation before somehow getting into the RE in around 1915/16. As his service records do not exist and very little is written about the subject I'm indebted to Green Acorn for the post.

Tim

[seaforths]

Thanks Phil,

I think the RE must have made such a massive and understated contribution and I certainly didn't realise how much they did on top of roads, bridges etc. were they also responsible for all of the mining that went on? Sorry about all of the questions but most of my relatives were infantry and then I have this one who became RE, one who was RAMC and another couple ASC and these are areas I know nothing about but am squirreling information away. What I probably need to do is get onto the classic thread - books and see if anyone can recommend some books so that I can read around the subject (helps with the acronyms too)

Marjorie

[seaforths]

Tim it is interesting that your Grandfather's service number seems further down the line from my Granddad's cousin which was SPR Morrison, James WR175915. Do you know the date your Granddad acquired his 'WR' service number?

Marjorie

[tn.drummond]

Marjorie

'fraid not but the WR number was a renumbering of his original which (not certain here at all) I believe took place in mid 1916. Will post if I can find out more.

Tim

[seaforths]

Thank you Tim!

James is complicated to research because he had 5 service numbers and his WR number was the last. Initially infantry then RGA then an RGA presumably when they renumbered possibly 1917, then RE and finally WR. Trying to work out when he was in what is a nightmare!

It was suggested in another thread that he moved to RE at the end of the war and then had some skills useful to put him in WR. Some info on him here but the service number is erroneous with an incorrect digit but it is him

[green_acorn]

Hendo,

A great find.

Is it dated? From the clip you posted it looks very sparse up towards St Julien etc.

.....

Phil

Phil, 24 Oct 1917, Hendo

[tn.drummond]

Hi Marjorie,

Really interesting posting. Just in case you don't know ROD is the Railway Operating Division (again RE) which covered the broad gauge railways.

Tim

[green_acorn]

Marjorie,

The maps you have are of the German railways and defensive works, the maps have been produced by the Intelligence Staff.

Your Grandfather cousin was definetely in the Railway Operating Department (R.O.D.) of the Royal Engineers according to the clip you posted.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Terry_Reeves]

WR prefixed six figure numbers beginning with WR1 and WR2 were railway numbers. You have to be careful with these though as they were issued to both railway operating personnel and men of railway construction companies. The number change for these came about in March/April 1918. Unit OC's had to send in nominal rolls and the numbers were issued as per the roll submitted. in theory at least it would seem that you might be able to find a man's unit if you can find consecutive numbers and a sufficient amount of service records to back it up.

TR

[seaforths]

Hendo and Terry,

Thanks to you both for the information! I did wonder about the maps. I knew they were intelligence maps but thought are they being produced on Allied wiring and railways to make our own aware of what construction has taken place in a given area? Or (and as you have pointed out) on wire and railway construction of the Germans?

I feel a bit daft having the clues under my nose from the Moray Roll entry! So thank you again, for helping decipher the acronyms and the top tips on service numbers. I will have a dig around but I know James' service record didn't survive. I have his MIC and I did photograph his page in the medal roll book so now I know what to do with the information, I shall do some digging around.

Something else I wondered about the maps too was references to light railways. Is that the type of railway you would have running say, down a pit? Smaller/narrower tracks (gauge- is that the correct term?) for lighter equipment or movement of casualties? Also, I wonder now (having read them in the infantry diaries) whether the railway men were running or had something to do with the troop schedules for movements on the railways because the timetables for those look as though they must have taken quite a bit of organising to move whole divisions around the country. His occupation is given as railway porter at that time (in the Roll clip I posted) but I seem to recall my grandmother talking of a relative who was a guard on the railway. I am now starting to think along the lines of operation not construction...

Lots to think about and thank you again. Sorry for more daft questions - just the logistics of sustaining the movement of everything and constructing on the hoof so to speak, for over 4 years, I find quite amazing.

Marjorie

[seaforths]

Oh Tim thank you too

[kenf48]

You may find this article on the WFA site of interest regarding light railways

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/weapons-equipment-uniform/354-light-rail.html

There is a fairly recent history of the ROD (broad gauge railways)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Operating-Division-Western-Front/dp/1900289997

Ken

[Phil Evans]

Phil, 24 Oct 1917, Hendo

Thanks Hendo,

Its just a case of being out of area of concern then.

Phil

[seaforths]

Phil I bookmarked the link above and thank you too. If I hadn't put that little snippet up I wouldn't have known the significance of the R.O.D. part.

I copied the maps I posted because I also have an interest in the evacuation routes of 3rd Ypres for 51st and 15th Divs. I have the routes and wondered if there was anything among the maps. Then I saw Hendo's post and thought they might be of interest to others.

I have looked at James' medal rolls and it has opened a couple of avenues of investigation:

those immediately preceding him and with numbers immediately before him were Gordons

and those in the one below are almost all RGA some have a WR service number within a hundred or so of him but the chap immediately below him has a WR number and RGA number close to him. The 4th column is the service number under which they entered the theatre of war. So my next line of enquiry to find out Hastie's service record has survived.

Ken- thanks for the links I will certainly follow them up as well. It helps to read around the subject but I didn't know where to start looking for a relevant book on James!

I think I might have another map or two on railways but I didn't post them because they are marked up as German but I can put them up if they are of interest to anyone?

Marjorie

[Phil Evans]

Marjorie,

I'm interested.

Also, without wishing to detract from the original thread, James' RGA numbers look like pre and post TF renumbering for North Scottish (City of Aberdeen) Fortress RGA.

Phil