Mark Finneran Posted 28 September , 2012 Share Posted 28 September , 2012 Seeking your assistance with 3 items please: 1. Leather case - allegedly sniper scope? 2. Intricate clinometer - allegedly pre-WWI? 3. British vickers ammo belt 250 rds but actually originally 80 rds. What were 80 rd belts with large tabs used for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 28 September , 2012 Share Posted 28 September , 2012 You are right about the clinometer being intricate, looks like down to a 16th part of a degree. It seems to have been converted or adapted a bit.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 28 September , 2012 Share Posted 28 September , 2012 You are right about the clinometer being intricate, looks like down to a 16th part of a degree. It seems to have been converted or adapted a bit.john It's better than that - it claims 1/120 degree resolution, that's half a MoA or 30 arc seconds. There's a Vernier scale to allow fractional division reading, but I can't quite figure out how it works. Are there further calibrations readable through the sighting device if there is one? Presumably there's a bubble level somewhere? 30 arc seconds is quite a claim - considering that good quality machine-shop Vernier protractors normally go to 5 minutes, 1/12 degree. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 H'mm, is there a cross levelling bubble on the arm of the 'clinometer', normally I'd expect to be able to see it in a side view. I think it was originally open and has been closed by the later addition of the extra metal. Its definitely degrees and not grads or something because there's 90 in the right angle. The micro scale is puzzling, I'd expect it to divide a main scale graduation into something sensible like 60 minutes or even decimal, at first glance it seems to be dividing a degree into 1/16ths roughly 4 minutes as the minor scale was fit for purpose (although the numbering is odd was there some particular German graduation?) - a circle divided into about 5400. UK instruments didn't go better that 5 minutes (4320 circle) which was quite adequate for artillery laying at that time. However, looking more carefully I think the microscale may actually decimal, 1/10th of a degree, with the extra just giving a bit of overlap, although its an odd way to work. Common sense looking at the scales suggests this is not a high precision instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Common sense looking at the scales suggests this is not a high precision instrument. I'd agree that it doesn't look capable of 1/120 degree, but 'Empfindlichkeit' means 'sensitivity', or 'resolution' in more modern terms. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 Even if the micro scale is dividing a degree into 1/16ths, (about 4 mins) I can't see how that can be 1/120th. The other issue is what this instrument actually is, going to 90 degrees elevation is not a field artillery clinometer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 The swinging Vernier scale looks as if it can move separately from the tube with the 'Empfindlichkeit 1/120' legend on it, because of the adjusting screw. There's also what looks like some kind of index mark on the end - which is what make me wonder if there's another reading scale somewhere... Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 Hi, the case is most likely German and not British judging by the studs and rivets. Thie stud/popper on the inside of the lid is very similar to that used on German equipment-water bottle covers etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 I am wondering is the inclinometer one used in the repair of aircraft to set wing alignments etc.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 30 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2012 Huge thanks for the comments so far. There are 2 of these devices and both similar. Here are some more views. TY again. Rear of first clinometer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 30 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2012 and the second clino: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 From the new pics i would say it is for repair or manufacturing. Set the angle you want lock it with the nut on back sit it on the work and adjust work until bubble is centred in level.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 Hi, the case is most likely German and not British judging by the studs and rivets. Thie stud/popper on the inside of the lid is very similar to that used on German equipment-water bottle covers etc I have to disagree with that statement - the type of snap in particular is not uncommon on items of British/Commonwealth manufacture. I have seen them on SBR bags and slouch hats amongst other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 1 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2012 So far I think comments confirm that it is of cse an elevation item (field gun or MG) ie a normal clinometer function. TY for all the interest. German, due to manufacturing stamps/maker stamps with one beginning with Rus...Russian?. My hope though is that the expertise can determine what weapon system this is for preferably with period images. Thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 1 October , 2012 Share Posted 1 October , 2012 So far I think comments confirm that it is of cse an elevation item (field gun or MG) ie a normal clinometer function. TY for all the interest. German, due to manufacturing stamps/maker stamps with one beginning with Rus...Russian?. My hope though is that the expertise can determine what weapon system this is for preferably with period images. Thanks Mark I think both the clinos are undoubtedly German - the first has the German for 'sensitivity' on the side - the 'Rus' mark has an umlaut and may be an abbreviation - the second is clearly made by someone called Rodenstock of Munchen (Munich). What's more difficult to figure out is how they were used. The Vernier scales don't appear to relate to minutes or seconds. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 2 October , 2012 Share Posted 2 October , 2012 And a scale up to 90 degres doesn't make any sense for artillery, mortars or MGs. 90 deg means vertically upwards! Guess where it lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 2 October , 2012 Share Posted 2 October , 2012 And a scale up to 90 degres doesn't make any sense for artillery, mortars or MGs. 90 deg means vertically upwards! Guess where it lands. Depends on the wind! But these look like general-purpose instruments, possibly pressed into service. They should still work all right, given a proper machined register. Anyone capable of learning to use them would probably also be able figure out that 90 degrees might not deliver a useful trajectory... Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 2 October , 2012 Share Posted 2 October , 2012 Andrew, We may have to disagree regarding the case, the construction is not the usual British style the body appears to be of an economy version with a hard case covered in leather, the lid being the only true leather structure. The buckle appears original looking at the rivets and is of a wire construction with roller, more usual on German and French equipment. British roller buckles being cast and not wire formed. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 3 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2012 Thanks for all the efforts. The case id is 'leaning' towards a French telescope/sight case but I am trying to track down any Frenchie experts. 2 Cinometers without doubt German but the markings/stamps on the back need to be confirmed to deduce period/arm. As to the vickers belts they remain more of a mystery. Originally 80 rd with large tabs and then as one can see 'modified' for standard 250 rds. I am not an expert but i guess an 80 rd belt flopping around in my sopwith camel is less likely to snag than 3 times the length - but not confirmed as of today. Sadly they are of cse no longer pure 80 rd belts but so far there is no offical documentation to confirm their purpose. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 5 October , 2012 Share Posted 5 October , 2012 Clinometers are one of the simpler components of a gun's sights. The only reason might be if lots of old guns were being dug out of stores and upgraded with sights for indirect fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 5 October , 2012 Share Posted 5 October , 2012 Clinometers are one of the simpler components of a gun's sights. The only reason might be if lots of old guns were being dug out of stores and upgraded with sights for indirect fire. They might be simple in terms of the number and complexity of components, but to make an accurate one is just as demanding in engineering as any other precision instrument - and, because it's so basic and fundamental to accurate laying, tighter tolerances might be in order than for other sighting components. The only way to establish how good these were would be to test them against known standards - after having worked out how the things were supposed to be read! Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Same precision as a dial sight, a lot less complicated because a field clino has no optics. Also a lot less complicated than a dial sight carrier (even without its sight clinometer) with an integral range scale. Not forgetting the precision of the plane where the field clino is placed, which has to be parallel with the axis of the bore. My understanding of German guns is that they didn't usually use field clinos because like UK they mostly used a range scale integrated with the dial sight mount. I think a field clino may have been used to conduct a full sight test or if a precision destruction shoot was being undertaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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