Soldier' brutal story

[Desmond7]

I've removed the first two pars here because people were getting 'hung up' on them. Essentially I am looking for any further info on see below

Most of you know my source has been accurate in the past and other battle accounts have proved true. Can anyone bring evidence to the table on this one?

Points to ponder - action at Hulluch, promotion/transfer and the MID.

The story was published in late October 1915.

The many friends in Ballymena and elsewhere will be pleased to learn that Sgt. W. J. Nesbitt, of the 1st Btn. Irish Guards, has been recommended for a commission and will in all probability be attached in future to the 4th (Service) Gloucester Regiment and will, he expects, be proceeding to a new sphere of operations on Friday after a few days’ leave at home from Flanders where he has been for almost the past 12 months.

He has seen during this time, some very severe fighting and has himself been wounded by shell fire in the legs and had to undergo several attacks from gas from which he is still suffering and at times pitting up blood from the severe

spasms of coughing.

He was mentioned in disapatches by Sir John French for distinguished bravery in holding a crater with a platoon of only 49 against outnumering forces of Germans.

The Guards bombd the Germans out of this crater and had the distinction of holding it for 24 hours until reinforcements arrived.

Just as they were going down a communicating trench, one of Sgt. Nesbitt’s comrades was killed by a shell. The Germans, unable to hold their position, withdrew and when Sgt. Nesbitt’s gallant little force returned to their quarters

that night there were only 11 to answer the roll call.

At the recent battle at Hulluch, they were ordered to storm the line of enemy trenches which they did with all the dash and gallantry associated with this historic regiment, but in a dug-out they discovered 10 Germans in hiding and firing for all they were worth.

On seeing them, Sgt. Nesbitt dashed upon them and fired ten rounds into their trench killing every one of them. (Some shooting - Des)

Fearing lest any of then might only be wounded and escape, he jumped into the dug-out, rifle in hand and bayonetted the entire lot amidst the cheers of the few comrades who witnessed his heroism.

Sgt. Nesbitt who is come of a good old fighting stock, was through all the South African war and his two brothers, are at present attached to the 18th Btn. RIR.

Edited 20 August , 2004 by Desmond7

[iain mchenry]

Des,

I have never heard of this story before so like yourself cannot say how much it was pepped up by some "Patriotic" Journalist. However should we take this story for as it is reported I cannot see where a war crime has been committed. At the end of the day Infantry are trained to "Kill and defeat the enemy". I do realise that this doesnt mean going around and butchering surrendering soldiers, but after hearing what this Sgt has been through, like so many others in all wars, people have to realise that what happens in war is not always fair. Heat of the moment, adrenaline pumping etc, feelings of revenge etc. Those German soldiers in the dugout had they not been surrendering, may well have proven problematic later in the battle just the same had the roles been reversed with British soldiers in the dugout. From the soldiers view at the end of the day "Its your life at risk, extinguish the problem!".

One thing I agree whole-heartedly with you mate, you can't libel the dead.

[N.S.Regt.]

Des

I have talked with a number of Canadian vets this one thing that I have heard a number of different stories about. Like you I do not want to name names but in talking to these vets I learned that during the final stages of the war mainly around Oct. 8th 1918 when the some of the Canadian troops were on the move a number of germans who tried to surrender were simply shot instead of sending them back. The reason I was given by them was they did not want to be encombered by these POWs and wanted to keep pushing ahead. Another tragic part of war.

Best regards

N.S.Regt.

[Desmond7]

Iain - you may have mis-interpreted my reason for making this post. I stated at the outset that 'some' people might regard the Sgt's behaviour as a 'war crime' - I am not making any such judgement.

If this account of an action is even 'roughly accurate, the Sgt. was obviously a very efficient soldier - and as you rightly point out - probably following the dictates of close combat at the time.

However, there is a gulf of understanding between the militaristic hun-hating mindset of WW1 and the opinions which people now hold of the military generally and the conduct of WW1 in particular.

There is also the - IMHO - incredible report of 10 shots, 10 dead/wounded scenario. All the shots fired by one man from his rifle.

I am only seeking clarity here.

And, since the report was not queried at the time, I can only assume that the Sgt's action was wholeheartedly applauded by his peers.

Therefore, I have decided to give the Sergeant's full name in the hope that more information will be forthcoming.

He is W. J. Nesbitt of Mount Street, Ballymena.

If all pans out - he would be the Ballymena equivalent of Audie Murphy/Sgt. York so you can see why I am interested!

I now realise that I had inadvertently left 2 references to his name in my original account. I can only put this down to eye strain having keyed in the better part of an entire newspaper from 1914-18!

Cheers Des

[Anthony Pigott]

- and as you rightly point out - probably following the dictates of close combat at the time.

However, there is a gulf of understanding between the militaristic hun-hating mindset of WW1 and the opinions which people now hold of the military generally and the conduct of WW1 in particular.

Surely it's standard practice today to continue to attack your enemy until you're certain that they're no longer a significant threat to you or your fellow soldiers. Taking the story at face value, having just fired ten shots at ten people, you'd be far from certain.

I'm sure some of the serving or recent soldiers on this forum could comment better than me.

Anthony

[Ali Hollington]

I think it has and is the practice to neutralise the threat, (I'll probably be flayed alive for suggesting this) I'd suggest that the bayonet hasn't often been used in the one on one duel as part of an group charge, at least not in recent times and in that I include WW1. Reports from WW1 via the Falklands even to more current events in Iraq, describe the use of the bayonet in the final stages of clearing the enemy's position, a Scot Guards officer in the Falklands writing of his experiences during the operations on Tumbledown describes using his bayonet during what is sometimes called the fight through.

As to the 10 shots 10 hits, (better than me, I used to struggle to pass my annual weapons test), it is often difficult to get an accurate report after the event. Ask any one who speaks or interview people after a traumatic event, whether a battle or car crash, two people stood beside each other will rarely give an exactly matching version of events unless coached or trained. Into this you have to add the aspect to events being "talked up" particularly in this sense as a propanganda issue.

Anyway:

War crime- not in my opinion from what we're been told;

Brave men- definately (not that anyone is suggesting otherwise)

Accurate- well..?

Ali

[John_Hartley]

Des

Good story this - whether or not "spun" by a journo (ain't that wot journos do?).

Bound to be some corroboration (or otherwise) in Regimental history or War Diary. Have you checked the document depository to see if anyone has them and can do you a look-up?

Either way, I doubt you need to be overly concerned about the "politics" of this case. War is war. War crimes are something else, IMO.

John

[Killratio]

...On seeing them, Sgt. XXXXX dashed upon them and fired ten rounds into their trench killing every one of them.

...Fearing lest any of then might only be wounded and escape,

...he jumped into the dug-out, rifle in hand and bayonetted the entire lot amidst the cheers of the few comrades who witnessed his heroism.

Des,

I have very little experience with researching the actual records for the ground war but have done so with literally thousands of reports on air combat, including the "Comic Cuts" or Communiques..the official summary which is really only a "news sheet".

The style of the piece smacks of after action bravado (either on the part of your guy or the journalist). I hasten to add that I don't use the word "bravado" in any disparaging way. This is the style of the Communiques.

I find it hard to believe that one man could stand outside a dugout/ out of a trench and get off ten effective rounds from a bolt action rifle whilst ten Germans who had peviously been "firing for all they were worth" suddenly became paralysed into inaction or became hopeless shots.

More likely that the good Seargent jumped into their midst and shot and bayonetted his way through. THAT may well have put them in the kind of dis-array that would allow him to get away with such a feat.

I don't doubt for one moment that he achieved the result of "ten dead Germans" I just feel that when reports of action are later written up events tend to merge, separate and even alter to fit the perception of what happened under an entirely stressful situation.

One hell of a job though......

On the subject of "War Crimes", we had an SAS guy out here get in hot water for kicking the body of an insurgent who he had just killed and who had just been shooting at the SAS unit. It all went away eventually but I can't see THAT being called a "Crime" in 1918!!

regards

Darryl

[Morval Ross]

Hello All,

I just want to ask a couple of questions.

"How many Rounds does the 303 Lee Enfield Hold?

If not ten, then he had to stop and reload, and all the while there were Germans shotting "for all they were worth" at him no doubt, Dramatic licence or one very very lucky man. Please do not take this as disrespect or disbelief of this man, far from it in fact. It just seems inconsistent that he was not hit and registered a hit with each round at close quarters, considereing the recoil of a 303 Lee Enfield bolt action and also having to reload.

But one thing is certain, he was a brave man.

Regards

Ross

[mcderms]

The SMLE holds 10 rounds, reloaded using 2 five round stripper clips.

I have an autobiography 'The laughter goes from life' in which the author describes taken a german pillbox. When the germans emerged with their hands up, the author and his friends 'shot them all down, laughing'.

Also look at the number of 'too late, chum' incidents the Aussies in particular report - 'Kamerad, kamerad' = 'Too late, chum!' and in goes the bayonet. There's also an account of gas unit prisoners being summarily executed.

Never forget that you cannot dehumanise a man in warfare then expect him to act rationally.

[David_Bluestein]

Well done Sjt. XXXXXX.

I see nothing wrong with his actions.

These Germans were resisting; war is a dirty business.

[Desmond7]

Does anyone study Gloucester Regt. on the Forum. They may be able to help with the promotion claim? I've been though a lot of Irish Guards accounts and yes they were heavily engaged at Hulluch etc.

I do not doubt for one moment doubt that Nesbitt was in to the elbows in some hard fighting - I just need some form of confirmation that he was 'rewarded' for his actions by the claimed commission.

Would a gazette report indicate his commission was granted after he showed gallantry in the field or something like that?

Des

[Desmond7]

In the interests of history, I have to post the following information:-

I've looked at the MIC for W.J. Nesbitt, Irish Guards. His rank is given as 'Private'.

After this report in the old newspapers, I have been unable to find another mention of any award of any description being made nor is there any confirmation of his promotion.

From my experience of other individuals mentioned in the paper, such 'follow up' stories are a matter of course. Could he have been indulging in a little wishful thinking?

Any further advice - avenues I should pursue?

Des

[Desmond7]

More puzzles -

The MIC card for W. J. Nesbitt has the following info:-

Campaign BEF - surname Nesbitt initials W.J.

Rank - Private.

Reg. No. 4113

Roll on which included I.G. /1/100

Opposite 'Action taken' is a robber stamp with:-

Medal

Victory

British

War

and opposite the rubber stamp is 'no remarks'

At bottom is written 'disembarkation date' 13/8/14

Now ... at the top the card says 'see Nesbitt . William'

So I access MIC for Nesbitt. William which says:-

Irish Guards 8527 Private

Irish Guards 8527 Corporal

In a nutshell do you reckon I've forked out my hard-earned for the wrong guy? Sob ...

[John_Hartley]

Des

Have you tried the Gloucesters Regimental Museum to see if they've ever heard of him as an officer?

[Desmond7]

Will do ...

Cheers John

[Desmond7]

I'm doing final, final wrap-ups on my project.

This man is one of two or three dilemmas .... it is a great 'story' but is it any more than a tale?

Gloucesters have no record of him. Kipling's Irish Guards has no mention of him.

So, this is my last resort and an plea ... if anyone is at the PRO and has any spare time, could they please take a look for his service papers?

And - lastly, Nesbitt's story has been part of the historical record (for those who cared to look through acres of microfiche) in our Local Studies Library since it was formed. How would you proceed? Leave it out altogether or pubish with a 'rider' explaining that it may have a core of truth but has no documentary evidence. I. E. He did not become an officer nor does he seem to have secured a gallantry award.

PLEASE PLEASE HELP.

Des

[John_Hartley]

Dear Desperate of Ballymena

I think I remember the letter from your man. Wasnt the general consensus at the time that this was all a bit too literary - and perhaps a good bit of Edwardian spin had been put on it somewhere.

As a responsible journo ( ), did you ever (a) check the contents of his letter against the known facts and ( check to see if his "leaping into trench" story was mentioned in the war diary.

If not, then I think seriously think you should. If it's true - and you can get verification - then you've got an absolutely cracking story (which suits the purposes that you mentioned to me privately ages back). If you can't verify it, then you just have a good "Boys Own" tale.

Hope you can find the confirmation. Until then, I don't believe half of it.

That said - publish and be damned, mate.

Uncle Harters

[Will O'Brien]

3 possible authors of the tall stories................

Pte W.J. Nesbitt 4113 Irish Guards............see here for his online MIC index entry .................right initials but wrong rank.

Clp William Nesbitt 8527 Irish Guards............his MIC entry is here ..............right rank

Pte William Nesbitt 4113 Irish Guards.................MIC entry here ...............Second regiment mentioned is Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers which doesn't fit

If I had to lay money on one of these I'd pick number 2................working back to front couldn't find any Nesbitt linked to the Gloucestershire Regt.

[Desmond7]

Cheers Will - I'm with you on that one.

My thinking is as follows:-

Man was present at the actions he describes .. in a somewhat sensational fashion.

He may have been TOLD he was being recommended for decorations/commission, jumps the gun, writes home and then gets the thumbs down on both counts?

I can't take this any further. I've waded through Kipling, any IG stuff I can find on the web, sent e-mails, made contacts etc etc.

I'm beat.

Des

[Max]

He may have been TOLD he was being recommended for decorations/commission, jumps the gun, writes home and then gets the thumbs down on both counts?

Hello Des

I think that you are spot on with this one......but then, when has a journo ever let the facts get in the way of a good yarn? As Uncle Harters says, publish and be damned.

Andy

[Guest 2contemptable]

Des,

Totally unrelated, but I have found the IRC Recruiting Report re Ballymena from the penultimate month of the war. Perhaps it is of some interest.

From Nats 1/245 TNA London. To Major Lloyd - Graeme from Mr Reid - Hyde,

21 October 1918.

'At a public meeting in Ballymena, over 3,000 men 60% of whom were of military age, listened on Saturday night to an inspiring speech by Mr McLaughlin of the IRC., and only 2 recruits were obtained. The Urban Council of Ballymena had been expressing loyalty at an official luncheon, but it was very noticeable that not more than one man in ten uncovered at the playing of th National anthem'.

James

[bernardmcilwaine]

I've removed the first two pars here because people were getting 'hung up' on them. Essentially I am looking for any further info on see below

Most of you know my source has been accurate in the past and other battle accounts have proved true. Can anyone bring evidence to the table on this one?

Points to ponder - action at Hulluch, promotion/transfer and the MID.

The story was published in late October 1915.

The many friends in Ballymena and elsewhere will be pleased to learn that Sgt. W. J. Nesbitt, of the 1st Btn. Irish Guards, has been recommended for a commission and will in all probability be attached in future to the 4th (Service) Gloucester Regiment and will, he expects, be proceeding to a new sphere of operations on Friday after a few days’ leave at home from Flanders where he has been for almost the past 12 months.

He has seen during this time, some very severe fighting and has himself been wounded by shell fire in the legs and had to undergo several attacks from gas from which he is still suffering and at times pitting up blood from the severe

spasms of coughing.

He was mentioned in disapatches by Sir John French for distinguished bravery in holding a crater with a platoon of only 49 against outnumering forces of Germans.

The Guards bombd the Germans out of this crater and had the distinction of holding it for 24 hours until reinforcements arrived.

Just as they were going down a communicating trench, one of Sgt. Nesbitt’s comrades was killed by a shell. The Germans, unable to hold their position, withdrew and when Sgt. Nesbitt’s gallant little force returned to their quarters

that night there were only 11 to answer the roll call.

At the recent battle at Hulluch, they were ordered to storm the line of enemy trenches which they did with all the dash and gallantry associated with this historic regiment, but in a dug-out they discovered 10 Germans in hiding and firing for all they were worth.

On seeing them, Sgt. Nesbitt dashed upon them and fired ten rounds into their trench killing every one of them. (Some shooting - Des)

Fearing lest any of then might only be wounded and escape, he jumped into the dug-out, rifle in hand and bayonetted the entire lot amidst the cheers of the few comrades who witnessed his heroism.

Sgt. Nesbitt who is come of a good old fighting stock, was through all the South African war and his two brothers, are at present attached to the 18th Btn. RIR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hello des,ime sorry i could not find the thread,ive checked both the 1st and 2nd batt and sgt nesbitts not mentioned nor is he in the medal rolls,if he had been at home for 12 months it would mean he had done his daring deed around oct,the germans were on the offensive and the british retreating,they hadnt begun to dig trenches during this period,if you want me to go through the batts movements let me know,bernard

[Desmond7]

Not surprised mate! I've been hunting him up for some time!

Reckon too many beers were going around.

des

Cheers

[SPotter]

Picking up on the 'brutal' of the post title, I would have thought that shooting or bayoneting your enemy were quite humane compared to the savage hand-to-hand fighting that prevailed, particularly during trench raids, later in the war, when studded clubs, knuckle dusters and vicious knifes were the order of the day?

Steve