Anyone good on windmills?

[pierssc]

A bit of a long shot maybe, but does anyone recognise the windmill in the background?

The photo is titled, in the album, "France 1915". The two soldiers on either side of the central chap (at least the right hand one) were I believe in the 9th batallion of the Royal Scots though there's something funny about their cap badges.... (blacked out? covered up? taken off?).

According to the Long Long Trail, the 9th (Highlanders) battalion landed at Le Havre on 26th February 1915 and was transferred to 81st Brigade, 27th Division. The division was involved in the action at St Eloi and 2nd Ypres. The chap on the right was subsequently commissioned 2nd Lieutenant and transferred to the 1st Gordons: the date of the announcement in the London Gazette was 29th August 1915, and post-war he claimed to have seen action at 2nd Ypres in a biographical sketch for his school's war record. So this has to date from Feb-Aug 1915.

Any ideas where it might have been?

Cheers

Piers

[kenf48]

Not exactly France - but a possibility? http://www.langemark-poelkapelle.be/toerisme-en/588-www/589-www.html

Similar windmills were common across Northern Europe but this one is quite famous

Ken

[pierssc]

Thanks Ken, as you say, there may be quite a few similar windmills in France and Belgium, I'm getting a sort of needle and haystack feeling! I don't think my Gt-Aunt was being too specific as to the country - as far as she was concerned he was just in "France"!

The current Beeuwsaert windmill doesn't look exactly the same; that's got a sort of building round the base whereas this one is supported on baulks of timber. On the other hand, it appears that the original one was destroyed in 1915 so it may have been different. I shall keep looking.....

[centurion]

Looks more like this one in Nord Pas de Calais

[pierssc]

It does quite - I wonder where it actually is? Surely not Lille, which I think was on the wrong side of the lines?

[centurion]

It does quite - I wonder where it actually is? Surely not Lille, which I think was on the wrong side of the lines?

there is a link "see where this was taken" on that page - click on it

[pierssc]

Yes, it's in a suburb of Lille

[tn.drummond]

The two soldiers on either side of the central chap (at least the right hand one) were I believe in the 9th batallion of the Royal Scots though there's something funny about their cap badges....

Cheers

Piers

Chap in the middle, could he be a London Scot ?

Just a thought.

S

[pierssc]

Could be, I'm grateful for the thought. I sort of assumed he might be in a different outfit to the other two, but there's not very much to go on, unfortunately, He doesn't seem to appear in any other photos in the album, but he very much seems to be the subject of this one, doesn't he?

[battiscombe]

81st bde had 1/Royal scots, 2/Glouc, 2/Cameron Highlanders, 1/Arg & Suth Highlanders and 9/royal scots for much of 1915 I think - so perhaps most likely to be from one of those units, one might suggest .. being closest neighbours, as it were..

[pierssc]

3+ years on I'm still hoping to pin down the location of this windmill!

The soldier on the right, according to his MIC, arrived in "France" on 4th May 1915. By the end of August 1915 he had been commissioned and he joined the 1st Gordons on 4th September. So this photo must have been taken sometime in the 3 or 4 month period while he was in the 9th Royal Scots in Flanders.

According to the 9th RS War Diary, the Regiment during that period was in the following locations:

Hooge (Trenches)

Busseboom (resting)

Reninghelst (resting)

Ouderdom (passed via)

Vlamertinghe (in reserve)

Locre (passed via)

Dranoutre (bivouacked)

Bailleul (passed via)

Steenwerke (parade)

Armentieres (resting)

Chapelle d'Armentieres (Trenches)

Orchard rue Gattignies (Trenches/reserve)

Erquinghem (at rest)

La Vesee (Trenches)

The general impression from the photo is that the subjects are relaxed so one assumes that the photo was taken while the battalion was resting, and wasn't in transit, so the location has to be narrowed down to Busseboom, Reninghelst, Dranoutre (possibly), Armentieres or Erquinghem

I can't find much on Busseboom.

There were two windmills at Reninghelst, both destroyed in 1918: This GWF thread refers to them, but has no photos. This photo appears to show one of the windmills in 1917, but it seems to have a covered base and isn't on a rise.

Couldn't find anything about Dranoutre (Dranouter) in the windmill context.

Armentieres - there may be some possibilities

Erquinghem - "Le vieux Moulin" has the wrong sort of base. This was August 1915 and he had probably already left for officer training.

I shall keep looking but do these names prompt any thoughts by anyone?

Cheers

Piers

[sdparker]

Piers

There is a similar windmill to the one in the photos at Cassel in France. It is situated right at the top

of the hill in the town_allegedly where The Grand Old Duke Of York_marched his men up and down!

Cassel is not far from the places mentioned in the war diaries above, and if they landed at Le Havre

and marched to the Salient,they may have passed through Cassel.

I have a photo of this windmill which we took 2 years ago and will try to add it to this post.

Since I am interested in windmills I think it is a post mill [mounted on large wooden shaft allowing it to

be rotated into the wind] with the supporting timbers covered by a tiled sloping roof, which could have

been added later.

Regards

Geoff

[zijde26]

To Pierssc,

Sorry for the delay. Informing myself took more time than presumed.

SOME COMMENT.

1 ) photo in posting 1

Up until now it seems impossible to localize the windmill in the background. However, the beneath-edge of the body of the windmill is characterized by a serrating.

This serrating is rather rare and can be helpfull in localizing the said windmill.

As far as it cocerns the people shown on that photograph I do not have ANY comment

2 ) Hooge

Hamlet on the Ypres-Menin route, not that far from ‘ Bellewaarde “

See certainly : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/nl/europeana/record/08547/sgml_eu_php_obj_z0068650

3 ) Busseboom

Is a part of Reningelst (Reninghelst). Hamlet.

Busseboom had NO (wind)mill during ww1. The windmill (Visscheriemolen, Visscherijmolen, Visserijmolen) ever present in that particular place disappeared already in 1880. At this moment, a street ( there ) Visserijmolenweg,remembers this windmill.

4 ) Reningelst (Reninghelst)

Since 1976 part of Poperinge (Poperinghe).

At the ww1 Reningelst, itself, had the ‘ Kasteelmolen “. The ‘ Kasteelmolen ‘ has been destroyed in 1918 by the GB-army and has not been rebuild.

5 ) Ouderdom

Is a part of Reningelst (Reninghelst). Hamlet.

Ouderdom, itself, had a windmill, the ‘ Goedmoedmolen “. The ‘‘ Goedmoedmolen ‘ has been destroyed at the end of the first world war and has not been rebuild.

6 ) Vlamertinge (Vlamertinghe)

All Vlamertinghe windmills, except ' De Witte Molen' (The White Mill), made of stone, disappeared ca 1900, thus before ww1.

This 'Witte Molen' was used during ww1 by the British army as CCS.

7 ) Loker (Locre)

According to my information Locre had two windmills during ww1

8 ) Dranouter (Dranoutre)

According to my information Dranoutre had two windmills. However both disappeared long before ww1.

9 ) Bailleul

Bailleul has had a lot of mills (some 18). Only one (an oillmill) was present during ww1.

I hope that this comment helps in your search.

Gilbert

[pierssc]

Thank you Geoff and Gilbert, I am very grateful for your thoughts, because they all help to narrow things down. I shall follow up your suggestions. As you say, Gilbert, there doesn't seem to be much to go on except for the saw-tooth edge of the mill. On closer examination, though, there are quite a lot of clues. Its front seems to be made of wooden shingles, which look like slates, so one can exclude those mills with boarded fronts. It seems to be on a little knoll (not uncommon, but that means one can exclude those mills which are not). It is not, I think, raised very high and its supporting timbers appear to rest on a brick foundation - quite a low one, of three or four courses only, so we can exclude the tall ones, built on substantial piers. Because the base is quite low, the sides of the mill are scooped away to avoid them fouling the diagonal timbers - so we exclude those with straight edges at the side. There is at least one grinding stone beside it; though this is unlikely to have been a permanent feature, it gives an idea of scale and shows that the brick base is quite low. I don't know whether buildings underneath being added later is possible. The mill in Geoff's photo (which I believe is of the Moulin de l'etendard) has such a building now but in old photos (if it is the same one) the building underneath isn't there; see http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/memoire/0826/sap01_tcf06280_p.jpg

I am very tempted by Cassel which seems to have had a huge number of windmills but I can't tie Cassel into the 9th Royal Scots known movements and so I don't think it is a prime contender.

Meanwhile by trawling through the War Diaries of the 9th Royal Scots, I have discovered that the references to "Erquinghem" are actually to "a rest camp at PETIT MOULIN, near ERQUINGHEM". Wey hey, I thought, I've got it. In fact the proper name seems to be "Petit Moulin Farm" and though it is very close to Erquinghem (or Erquinghem-Lys) it is in fact on the other side of the river and is probably really part of Nieppe! Unfortunately the only photo I have so far found purporting to be of "Le Petit Moulin, Nieppe" seems to show a mill with a quite different sort of base and no scooped sides: http://morel.and.co.free.fr/moulins/moul017g.jpg . So the search continues. I don't think it is any of those in http://alain.tairnaite.free.fr/moulinsavent3/index.html or http://morel.and.co.free.fr/moulinsp.html

I suspect that I need to look for mills in proximity to Rening(h)elst or Erquinghem.

Piers

[trajan]

... There is at least one grinding stone beside it ...

Having once excavated a water-mill in my former career as a digging archaeologist, I got to like all kinds of mills which is why I have been looking at this thread. Well, a very nice and purely functional post-mill, nothing fancy about its base and no visible outbuildings, but what really interested me is that millstone. From my past experience, I would suggest that it is a French-burr type, one of those made up from several segments of Marne stone set in a plaster, and around 4ft - 4ft 6" in diameter, the whole thing being bound together with one or more heat-shrunk iron hoop(s). These French-burrs were used exclusively for flour grinding, and were expensive - well, certainly in England! So, this mill was grinding flour for bread, which may be of help as at the very least it allows you to ignore any that were for animal feed - and also removes and eliminates the possibility it was a water-raising mill like those so characteristic of Holland and other low-lying wet areas.

EDIT: stress added.

[zijde26]

To Pierssc,

During ww1 there were a lot of rest-camps in Reninghelst, also near the ' Kasteelmolen ' (Castle mill)

If you like it, I can send a scan of a photo of that mill, Please, send an email !

Gilbert

[sdparker]

Piers

The lovely picture of the L'Etendard mill at Cassel has narrower sails than the current one in my

photo, but we dont know how original the existing one is. I agree with Gilbert that the biggest

clue is the serrated edges on the bottom of the structure.

But based on other stories of men going sightseeing when away from action I have a fanciful

theory;

Could these men have been sent to Cassel to get supplies and knowing the nursery ryme

The Grand Old Duke Of York decided to climb the hill and take a photo a the top, but then

remembering to obscure their cap badges to avoid trouble with their unit!

I think I can hear hoots of laughter already

Regards

Geoff

[pierssc]

Trajan: thanks for that, it may help and you've certainly added to my general knowledge!

Gilbert: Thank you, I've sent you a message.

Geoff: I agree, the existing mill may have been rebuilt. I don't dismiss your theory at all. But I think I should concentrate on mills close to one of the camps where the people concerned were known to have been. I don't think that ORs tended to get much time off for jaunts about the countryside so wherever this mill was, it had to be close to somewhere they were supposed to be, and my guess is that they didn't have to travel very far to get to it.

Gillespie, on the right, came to France on 4th May 1915 and may have joined the battalion at Hooge with a draft of 70 men on 8th May. So there a gap of 4 days unaccounted for between his landing (at Boulogne? At Le Havre?) and his joining them in the line at Hooge. So the windmill could be anywhere between those two points - though I suspect that he probably spent much of the time on one of those very slow trains one reads about rather than hanging around being photographed by windmills. At some point he left them to go home as he was plucked from the ranks to be commissioned. He was Gazetted on 29th August, there are photos of him in Edinburgh in "September 1915" as a very shiny 2/Lieut, and the War Diary of the 1st Gordons records his joining them on 4th September. I don't think the photo was taken on his way home, because the chap on the left turns up as a corporal, in hospital blues, in photos from April 1916, so he wasn't going back home to be commissioned too. It is the sort of photo that might have been taken with his chums shortly before he left. If I can work out more or less when that was, it will narrow the list of possible locations.

Piers

[Neill Gilhooley]

Excellent photograph!

As you probably know the battalion detrained at Cassel on 28th February 1915 en route from Havre to the Salient. It may have been that drafts passed this way too.

Also the War Diary mentions Pte S. Gillespie sent to cadet school 26th July 1915, so it would seem the photograph would be between 4th May and end-July '15.

I assume we are talking about Samuel Percy Gillespie, Pte 3004 9th Royal Scots?

[pierssc]

Ah, I didn't know about Cassel (though of course Gillespie wasn't with them until May) - or rather, I didn't look back that far, reckoning that February was too long before he got there to be relevant. So maybe Geoff's hunch is right! Yes, you're right, it's S.P. Gillespie.

Do you know, I've got a copy of the War Diary, and I had completely overlooked that entry on 26th July. You're absolutely right, how could I have missed it ???!! It is even around the period I thought I had checked to see if I could see a reference. Doh!

So that narrows down the time frame nicely (and extends the search area!). Thank you very much.

[zijde26]

To pierssc,

Did you succeed in finding it ?

Gilbert

[pierssc]

Not yet... I'll let you know when I do!

[Neill Gilhooley]

I was looking for something else and spotted a couple of (probably quite unsuitable) windmills to add... Terdeghem (nr Cassel);

Moulin de la Victoire Spinnewyn (Hondschoote) [slatted side but some look faced with shingles on the sail-side];

and Boeschepe (the base of this is now covered)

Edited 20 October , 2016 by Neill Gilhooley

[pierssc]

Hi Neill, thanks for persisting with this.

 

The Terdeghem one (Moulin de la Roome) looks possible - trouble is that the original one was destroyed in 1927 and the present one is a modern reconstruction, so it is difficult to know how much weight to place on points like the lack of saw-tooth edging to the lower part of the front.  The reason I feel we may be getting warm is because the general aspect looks quite like the 1915 photo - the mill is on a slight eminence and the supporting structure is comparatively low.  I think it's in the right sort of area too, though I'll have to try to work out how it ties in with the 9th RS locations - allowing that the photo may have been taken while the draft was on its way to join them.  What we really need is a pre-1927 photo of the Roome mill!

 

I'll do some more Googling...

 

cheers

Piers

 

 

Edited 20 October , 2016 by pierssc

[Chris_Baker]

Just to add that there were mills of this type on many of the summits of the Flemish Hills - Mont Noir, Scherpenberg, etc