British Gun Carrier Units

[ianjonesncl]

A thread has been running on the The soldiers and armies of the Great War Other sub forums about Artillery mounted on caterpillar tracks.

Thread : Artillery mounted on caterpillar tracks?

There is reference to the British Mark I gun carrier which was capable of carrying a 60 pounder gun or a 6 inch howitzer.

According to the wikipedia entry on this machine; “In July 1917 two Gun Carrier Companies were formed of 24 vehicles each.”

Anyone know which units were formed? Royal Garrison Artillery? Army Service Corps ?

I can not see anything in Fredrick's lineage reference RGA companies. I have looked at the Long Long trail on ASC and trawled through the Orders of Battle for France and Flanders.

EDIT: Just found that the Mk1 Gun Carrier is also on the Tank Memorial at Pozier's - http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/somme/pozieres.html

Royal Tank Regiment operated these ?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Ian

[sotonmate]

Ian

WO95/100 War Diary for No 1 Gun Carrier Company, Tank Corps,and runs from Jan 1918 to Jan 1919 plus Apr 1919. The Diary is digital and downloadable.

Another part under the same ref covers 1920.

Sotonmate

[ianjonesncl]

Sotonmate

Many thanks - this has put me in the right direction.

I have downloaded the War Diary. Seems to be many entries "nothing to report" - "no movement of Tanks". This does not appear to be a very active unit !!

The War Diary strting in January 1918 seems to support the dates from this web site.

From this website http://webspace.webring.com/people/nu/um_103/WWI/Main/Lineage/Battalions.htm

1st Gun Carrier Supply Company formed December - 1917

2nd Gun Carrier Supply Company formed December - 1917

Ian

[ianjonesncl]

The War Diary also contained a short History of the 1st Gun Carrier Company Tank Corps.

Initially during the experimental stage the gun carrying tanks were manned by the Royal Garrison Artillery and Army Service Corps drivers. Initially formed into independant sections of 6 tanks, they were embodied into the Tank Corps. The RGA provided one NCO per tank whose duty it was to take charge of the mounting and dismounting of the guns.

The four sections were concentrated together to form 1st Gun Carrier Company Tank Corps on 22nd November 1917. Experienced had proved that the services of the RGA NCO’s could be dispensed with, and they were returned to their units on 31^st January 1918.

The Company were not called upon until May 1918, by which time it had been decided that the tanks were better employed as supply carriers, and consequently the heavy gun tackle and fittings on the tanks were removed in preparation for their new role.

The use of Gun Carrying tanks therefore ceased in May 1918.

SHORT HISTORY OF THE 1st GUN CARRYING COMPANY TANKS CORPS - covering the period when the prime role was gun carrying for the RGA

[Sidearm]

The use of Gun Carrying tanks therefore ceased in May 1918.

I have a record that Gun Carrier GC126 of the 2nd Sub Section 6th Tank Carrier Company fired a 6" howitzer from the carrier on 31 May 1918, and that on 13 June 1918 GC147 of B Section 6th Tank Carrier Company carried a 60 pounder mounted on a Mark III carriage. But I agree that by this time the use of GCs was mainly for the transport of stores (hence the assignment of both GC126 and GC147 to a Tank Carrier Company) and these instances were unusual.

Gwyn

[Guest Aubersridge]

Hello All,

I realise this topic is now 4 years old, but a few months back I found out that my Grandfather was one of the NCO's (Acting Sgt) with the Gun Carriers, and interestingly some of the dates quoted from documents above do not tie in with his movements viz:
22/5/17 posted temporarily to Kitson & Co, presumably to assist with the design or manufacture of the Gun Carriers!
28/8/17 Promoted A/Sgt (again)
28/8/17 'Proceeded with Tank Corps for service overseas from Messrs Kitson and Co Leeds
23/2/18 Posted 'Sch of Mtrs 4th Army'  (School of Motors? anyone know anything about this?
14/4/18 'Posted Rempl (? unclear) Camp (Re-employment Camp?) Ponty (Pont) Remy'
10/5/18 Posted to 25 Heavy Battery RGA sometime after which he ended gassed, wounded in knee and later delayed shell shock. 25 Bty had taken a hammering at Gonnelieu in the Counter Attack by the Germans at Cambrai in 1917, so he was perhaps a replacement, retained his A/sgt status.

So, I have followed the link to the short history but it is now broken, I checked the war diary at the NA but there are several for 1st Tank Brigade, anyone know which one I need?

Also I have seen most references say the Gun Carriers first saw service at Cambrai but others say it was Passchendaele, did they get to both or? The date of movement to France makes either possible. 
The Gun Carriers are not listed with the 1917 Cambrai ORBAT so far as I can see, anyone any thoughts?
I cannot find a listing for the 25 Hvy Bty War Diary at the NA, anyone any ideas?

Basically, as you can tell from the questions it is a simple case of me trying to find out where he served and any other related information. Anything anyone can help with appreciated.

[Gareth Davies]

Gun carriers were introduced during the latter stages of 3rd Ypres.  

[ianjonesncl]

I have the following notes which I believe came from the missing link.

 

ource: History of the 1st Gun carrier Company Tank Corps. WO95 / 100 Image 519 page 122

History of 1st Gun Carrier Company Tank Corps July 1917 to May 1918

During the First Battle of the Somme, difficulty was experienced in moving guns of a heavy calibre forward. To alleviate this problem the gun carrier was developed, capable of carrying a 6 inch Howitzer or 60 pounder gun, together with a supply of ammunition. The designed allowed the gun to be quickly mounted / dismounted of fired from the carrier tank. The carrier could then be used to as a mechanism to supply ammunition to the guns.

The first gun carrier tank (no 100) was built at Leeds by Kitson & Company and brought to France in July 1917. The tank was manned by personnel of the Royal Garrison Artillery, with Army service Corps NCO’s and drivers attached. Experimental work was carried out at Erin and Proven (near Ypres).

It was then decided to embody the gun carrying tanks into the Tank Corps.  Arrangements were then made to form independent Gun Carrying sections.

A Section    Formed 9th Jul 1917    at Leeds    deployed France 31st Aug 1917

B Section    Formed 6th Sep 1917    at Bovington    deployed to France 3rd Sep 1917

C Section    Formed 23 Sep 1917    at Bovington    deployed to France 7th Nov 1917

D Section    Formed Oct 1917    at Bovington    deployed to France 4th Dec 1917

Each section included six Royal Garrison Artillery NCO’s (one per tank) whose duty it was to take charge of the mounting and dismounting of the guns.

On formation, A section initially conducted driving training and mounting / dismounting of guns in Leeds. Experimental firing at Shoeburyness    preceded embarkation to France 31st August. On arrival at Erin, training was continued until 6th September, when six gun carrying tanks were drawn from the central workshops. The section then deployed to Ouderdon. Here further trials were conducted, when it became apparent that owing to mechanical troubles and the nature of the ground the tails, as then fitted to the tanks, were undesirable and accordingly abandoned before actual operations were commenced.

Operations commenced a with the deployment of 4 tanks to Zillebekke and 2 tanks to Three Kilo Point (near Woodcote House), where they were employed carrying 6 inch Howitzers and 60 pounder guns and ammunition. It was during this action that the first casualties were sustained when tank 106 received a direct hit from a 5.9 inch shell.

With further sections being formed in the UK, the sections were to be amalgamated to form a company under the command of major AB Tawse., and further additions would be made to bring the strength up to the establishment.

Operations continued until 19th November when the section entrained at Riegersburg ramp en route to Erin where the tanks were handed into the Central Workshops, where two were found to be non-operational.

They deployed again on the 22nd November 1917, detraining at Ypres moving to Hermies to take part in the first battle for Cambrai. They were employed moving ammunition from the Decauville railway to the batteries positioned on the line of the Grand Canal du Nord. They continued until 20th December when they returned to Erin, before moving to the Depot Camp at Treport.

B section embarked for France on 3rd November after initial training at Bovington. After a few days at Erin, they entrained for Happy Valley near Fricourt where they drew 5 gun carrying tanks. After moving to Le Platrau, they entrained on the 19th November for Ypres.  Deploying to Havrincourt Road, they undertook work supplying fighting tanks, then subsequently gun / ammunition carrying for the RGA from 20th to 27th November. They continued until 20th December when all but two tanks returned to Erin. The remaining two gun carriers carried guns and ammunition for 63rd H.B. group [sic 63 HAG ????].. They continued until 19th January 1918, one tank transferring to salvage work, the other to entraining to the central workshops.

When A & B sections met up at Erin, their tanks were sent to the central workshops. The personnel moved by train to Treport, where they were able to spend Christmas in billets at the Depot Camp.

C section arrived at Erin on the 12th November.  Whilst continuing their training, they shared in the work of maintaining supplies of ammunition to the battle tanks in action at Cambrai. On 2nd December they moved to the Depot Camp at Treport.

D section embarked for France 4th December, and proceeded directly to the depot Camp at Trecourt.

The 1st Gun Carrier Company was officially formed 22nd November 1917, however it was not until January 1918 that formation arrangements could be carried out as the sections concentrated at the camp.     Organisation and training as a company commenced, culminating with an inspection by Commander Tank Corps 19th January 1918.

Experienced had proved that the services of the RGA NCO’s could be dispensed with, and they were returned to their units on 31st January 1918. On 5th February 1918, Major Moore assumed command.

The Company’s initial tasking was the provision of working parties from 14th February till 14th March. It was not until 10th April before 12 gun carrying tanks arrived from at the Mers ramp. The intervening time being spent training, the tedium of in action being relieved by many football matches and concert parties. Time was now spent preparing the tanks, and bringing the company ip to strength with the arrival of 10 subalterns and 3 OR’s from the depot, as well as 19 OR’s from no 2 gun carrying company.

The next deployment commenced 26th April when the company with 10 tanks moved to Erin. After training, they moved to Humeroruille . Further experimentation with gun carrying work was undertaken, and the company drew a further 14 gun carrying tanks from central stores, bringing the total to 24.

On 22nd May, 12 gun carrying tanks were handed over to no 2 Gun Carrying Company. The other 12 tanks were moved by train for Foulainville , then then tracked to Querrieu Wood on the Amiens-Albert Wood. The remainder of the company remained at Humeroruille to draw 12 more tanks. In Querrien Wood, a camp was established.

Whilst in this location it was decided that the carriers were best used in the moving of stores for Battle Tanks, Infantry, Artillery and Engineers. Consequently the heavy gun tackle and fittings on the tanks were removed in preparation for their new role.

The use of Gun Carrying tanks therefore ceased in May 1918.

[IWODMJPod]

I know this thread is six years old at this point, but I've encountered a number of roadblocks trying to find the unit diary of the 1st GCC because it's connected to the recovery of A7V #506 Mephisto. and 23 men were specifically involved.

If anyone still has the unit diary somewhere or a nominal roll from the 22 July 1918 that would be greatly appreciated.