CWGC Notification of Interments

[Seadog]

Despite their assurances that upcoming interments of found military human remains identified or as is the usual case, unknown will be publicized on their web site in the “Events” section the latest of these burials although the subject of UK press coverage have not been so publicized and members can go to this thread below for more information. I can of course understand that perhaps the relatives have insisted that the occasion remains private but this would be a rare occurrence especially as in the RAAF case the Discovery History TV Channel are filming the burial for broadcast on Friday 20th April 2012.

What does concern me is just what other interments have not been publicized by the CWGC in particular the still outstanding Beaucamps-Ligny 15 British soldiers and the Comines 6 British soldiers of WW1 all of which await a decent burial and in the case of the BL 15 have now been waiting for getting on for three years!.

Click for GWF Topic (Skindles)

Norman

[David_Underdown]

Just today they have reminded us that a WWII RAAF servicemen is being reburied

[Seadog]

So I see David, here is the response from the CWGC received today.

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry that we failed to publicise the funeral of Sgt Smith today. We have been attempting to upload the story to our website but have continually encountered an issue with our Content Management System which appears not to be replicating items across our two live servers. In effect this means the items keep appearing and disappearing as the site switches between the two machines or images and files do not upload at all. We are attempting to get something on the site this morning. Once again I apologise and hope that we can improve the service when these technical issues are overcome.

Peter Francis

Head of External Communication

Norman

PS So how many more have not been reported?, hopefully none.

[PBI]

Be Interesting to see if the MOD will make any attempt at IDing any of the BL-15,as for their interment being announced publicly,if the CWGC/MOD run true to form i wont be holding my Breath waiting for any Public notifications from either Organisation..Sadly I suspect that the MOD/CWGC will bury these 15 with as little fuss and cost as possible.

[frankyboy77]

Hi

I enclose a letter received in January from JCCC.SPVA Sue Raftree.

Stating they were still looking into the 15. ?

Copyfrom January 2012

Sue Raftree SO2 Post Death Admin JCCC,SPVA

Thank you for your email forward to me for reply. It was lovely to talk to you about this very complex case which we are still investigating with

the Regimental Museum and other parties. I do understand you would like it finalised at the earliest opportunity and I will keep you updated .

In the intrim if you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards Sue

end quote

As you can see she did phone me at the time and very shortley ,I will be intouch with her to see if there his any news.

I like you all know they work very slow at letting out any information.

In hope

Larrett (Frank)

[Seadog]

Thanks Frank you got a reply but it sounds like the standard response. I and no doubt others appreciate your efforts but the total lack of transparency and publicity given to this case and the 6 soldiers found in Belgium is not acceptable in these times when a case such as Sergeant Smith of the RAAF who was found in 2011 and given the dignity of a named burial this year can be processed so promptly because I have no doubt the Australian authorities involved acted in their usual considerate and timely manner.

Yes I know that Sergeant Smith RAAF was identified by various artifacts found with his remains but I am willing to bet that if this was a British subject we would still be waiting for action. Remember that certain members of this forum and one in particular have expended considerable efforts to help the MOD with their work and so far with no result whatsoever. Whichever way we look at this the fact that these WW1 soldiers are treated with such apparent distain is not acceptable.

Norman

[frankyboy77]

HI

As I stated i contacted SPVA_DMS JCCC .SUE Raftree:-

Dear Frank

Thank you for your email regarding your grandfather Larrett Roebuck who served with the York& Lancs during the 1st World Warand you belive may be one of the 15 sets of remains found at Beaucamps Ligny in 2009.

Due to the Fromellies project we inherited a back log of our British cases which we are now slowly progressing as wellas the ongoing Fromelles . We have atotal of 13 cases outstanding of 1st WW remains inFrance mostley single but

several 4 or more.The larger sets of remains need fuller investigation and Beaucamps Ligny is one of them. Therefore ultimately we do have delays regrettably.

We are current investigating this case with the Regiment and progressis being made. It is a complicated case and one that involves much investigation and ultimately if we can identify any of the soldiers and bring closure to their failies that is our aim.

You mention that more Australians have been named and laid to rest but I believe you are referring to the Fromelles project not this one. Fromelles was a unique case lead led by the British and Australian goverments and funded by them. It is

a 5 year project and every year an identification board is held and you are correct that futher Australians were identified this this April and will be commemorated this July and their families invited.

Likewise the burial of Sergeant Smith was organised by the Australians. They have far fewer soldiers found in France and a much larger team to investigate. We have only 2 staff employed on this work and over 40 outstanding cases.

I am sorry that this case is not progressing as quickly as you wish and I do appreciate your frustration.we do have a back log and are addressing it but we only have certain resources to progress our cases.

Regards Sue.

Friends how do we push it on has any one got any more ideas or ploys ?????

Frank

(for Larrett our grandad)

[Seadog]

Frank, you have done well in obtaining the response that you have kindly posted for us regarding the human remains of WW1 British soldiers found on the battlefields and still awaiting the dignity and decency of burial in a War Cemetery. Any of my comments that follow are of course in no way directed at you or the efforts that you are making in respect of the Beaucamps-Ligny 15. The number of 13 outstanding WW1 cases is mentioned; well there are 15 from France and 6 from Belgium which already exceeds the total quoted by 8 so where the figure of 13 comes from is a mystery. The bit about the “backlog” being caused by the Fromelles situation sounds very much like an excuse to me and it is worth reminding ourselves that if I remember correctly not one British soldier serving in the British Army was identified from the original burial pits though I stand to be corrected. As for the 40 total outstanding cases presumably the balance relates to WW2 or other conflicts but no further details are given.

My view is that the British MOD are completely failing in their duty of care towards those who gave their lives during WW1 in that the resource level allocated is pathetic comprising as it does of TWO people dedicated to the task if identification of our dead. I have no doubt whatsoever that the unacceptable timescales and lack of any media press releases in particular of the two cases mentioned above is a deliberate policy now adopted by the MOD primarily caused by the success achieved in the identification of the Australians at Fromelles and the cost of such an exercise which used DNA matching on such a scale and so good a result that it has created a precedent which the MOD would rather ignore and no doubt wishes had never happened.

[Regards
Norman

PS Frank perhaps your posts will be more applicable on this thread to which I have posted this reply.
http://1914-1918.inv...c=137464&st=200

[J Banning]

I spoke to a CWGC employee I know who works out of Beaurains a few weeks ago and asked him if he knew anything about the men found at Beaucamps-Ligny. He asked around and confirmed that the ball was still very firmly in the MOD’s court.

I would assume that the cases referred to actually means the number of separate finds i.e. not total number if bodies. So, the 15 men found at Beaucamps-Ligny will be one case. Sue has already indicated that some of these cases are for four or more bodies.

[Seadog]

That would fit Jeremy even though it does seem an odd way to describe the numbers outstanding to someone asking a reasonable question. Mind you the situation may now be worse than I thought for if the BL15 is one case and there are others of 4 or more plus some in single figures just how many sets of human remains applicable to WW1 are stored in boxes awaiting the attention of the two people responsible for any attempted identification?. I note that the reply also states that this number applies to France so if this does not include Belgium then goodness knows what the actual figure is. This also raises the question as to whether any of these "finds" have been reported in the UK media and if as I understand the CWGC Exhumation Officer is involved with all such finds why cannot the CWGC themselves know the actual number for surely they must have a record.

All in all it looks like a complete disorganized mess and something which I would have thought needs some sorting out. I would of course be delighted to be proved wrong in my opinion but nothing so far posted on this forum would appear to alter my own and no doubt other members view of the situation. I am of course assuming that the remains in the custody of the MOD are in each individual case sufficient in quantity to warrant an attempt at identification for if not then again I assume that they would have been handed over to the CWGC for burial as there would be no valid reason for the MOD to retain them any longer. Remember that the BL15 case is now in its third year and the Belgium 6 case even longer let alone all the others that we are not aware of.

Regards

Norman

[frankyboy77]

Hi Norman

Having another go to Prime Minister enclosed a copy do you think it will work or not

Regards Frank

Mr D Cameron

Sir

I was interested to see you are going to put money available to enable secondary school children to visit the war graves from WW1. This will help them to realise the heartache of the wives and children who were left without a breadwinner to bring them up.

My grandmother was one of these wives and she had three daughters and a son who all went into service at around 12 years of age as she was unable to keep them. One daughter went into service in Blackpool another, my mother, cleaned in a public house and her son went down south. She did everything she could to get them pack but health stopped her from achieving this.

In 1934 she came to live with my parents and helped to bring me up.

My grandfather was (Lance Corporal 8116 Larrett Roebuck of the York and Lancaster regiment) and he was killed in action, or missing as was stated at the time, very early in the war in October 1914. His name is on the Ploegsteert Memorial in Belgium.

In November 2009 I heard on the radio that 15 bodies had been found in France near the town of Beaucamps-Ligny and they had been identified as being from the York and Lancaster Regiment by their buttons. After making enquiries I was informed that my grandfather may have been one of these bodies.

I believe that body's are in the Morgue at Arras in France, I have visited this area a couple of times since then to see the place were the body's were found,

Since then I have tried to get to know if he is one of them. I have used the G W Forum and the Sheffield Forum. We were told that DNA tests would be done so that the men could be buried in their own graves. I have been in touch with my MP Clive Betts and he seems to have hit a brick wall, I have contacted the JCCC three times to try and get some answer's but they say they are very busy with present war situation which is understandable.

However, surely after these remains being found three years ago something should have been done by now to give them a burial . I have been to the Memorial in Belgium but It would be nice for his seven grandchildren to be able to visit a grave with his name on. I would very much appreciate any help you can give me in getting some information for us we do intend a meeting in Sheffield on the14/11/12

Thanking you in anticipation of your help.

Frank Wood.

on behalf of his Grandchildren

[Seadog]

The latest anouncement from the CWGC of reburials taking place in April 2013:

Link

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2013/4/reburial-of-british-soldiers-at-hac-cemetery,-france.aspx

2 HAC Identified

2 HAC Unidentified

5 Others? interred in the HAC War Cemetery on the same day but at a separate time.

(Note that the CWGC state that these men will be buried "Earlier that day" but do not specify a time).

Norman

[Seadog]

The CWGC have informed me that the service for the 5 unknown soldiers will commence at 1000 hrs on the 23rd April to be followed by the rebural of the HAC soldiers both identified and unknown.

Norman

[Seadog]

Latest from the CWGC Ypres office:-

Please note that on Tuesday, 9 July 2013 at 1000hrs the remains of 3 unknown South African soldiers of the 4^th Regiment South African Infantry will be buried at Tyne Cot Cemetery. For more information please contact the Defence Attaché of the South-African Embassy, Colonel Fondse; rynafondse@gmail.com.

My bold type.

LEST WE FORGET

Norman

[Seadog]

From the CGWC website,

World War Two Bomber Crew to be Laid to Rest with Military Honours in Italy

09 July 2013

The crew of a Royal Air Force Boston Bomber, which crashed 68 years ago while taking part in operations in the Po Valley in Italy, will be laid to rest with military honours on Thursday 18 July 2013 at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Padua War Cemetery in Italy.

Boston BZ590 belonging to 18 Squadron took off from Forli near Rimini at 8.45 pm on 21 April 1945, with the target being a river crossing on the Po at Taglio di Po followed by an armed reconnaissance of the Po Valley. The aircraft failed to return and was believed to have been brought down by anti-aircraft fire. It crashed killing all four crew members on board, three British and one Australian. One of the British crew, the pilot, was poet Sergeant David Raikes who had some of his work published by his family during the 1950's.

Relatives of the crew members will be travelling from Brecon and West Sussex in the United Kingdom and New South Wales in Australia to witness the burial service.

Padua War Cemetery contains over 500 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War.

Sadly no details of the discovery of the aircraft neither are the rest of the crew mentioned by name I would have thought that was the least we could expect.

Norman

[KevinBattle]

Further details here, Norman

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/48526-bomber-crew-to-be-laid-to-rest-in-italy-after-68-years/

[John_Hartley]

Any knowledge of the story, Kevin?

Long time for a plane not to be found. Did it come down in the sea?

[Seadog]

Thanks Kevin I wonder if the actual discovery of these men who gave their lives for freedom and this country was reported anywhere or is it yet another example of the British authorities I assume the MOD not being bothered to issue a press release.

BOSTOCK, ALEXANDER THOMAS. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Wireless Op./Air Gunner

HUNT, JOHN PENBOSS. Rank: Warrant Officer.

PERKINS, DAVID MILLARD. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Navigator

RAIKES, DAVID KENNEDY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Pilot

Norman

[KevinBattle]

Unusual source, but tells more of the story... EDIT: One crew member had links to Sydenham area, hence the local newspaper involvement.

http://www.newsshopp...10522432.print/

I've not EDIT: I didn't remember that I had any dealings with this, just posted the crew details on the other (more relevant) forum in case other crew relatives were able to locate using search engines. For a wreck and remains to be undiscovered "in a field" must mean it's a fairly remote location, I would assume, perhaps up in the hills above the Po valley.

The wreckage was located in July 2011, presumably the 18th has been chosen for the second anniversary of its discovery.

Ah! Light bulb moment - I see I got involved originally back in July 2011 and there is a link to the Australian records.

http://ww2talk.com/f...family-members/

Didn't remember it, too many fingers in too many pies!

[glosterman]

Thanks Kevin I wonder if the actual discovery of these men who gave their lives for freedom and this country was reported anywhere or is it yet another example of the British authorities I assume the MOD not being bothered to issue a press release.

Norman

As story quoted in the Telegraph a couple of weeks ago and has appeared in papers local to crew (see above) I assume MoD did issue a press release. http://www.telegraph...r-70-years.html KH

[Seadog]

See the link for upcoming burials etc posted by the CWGC today 19th August 2013 with the first taking place tomorrow the 20th August 2013 when the CWGC must have known about this for weeks. These I presume are some of the 60 sets or partial sets of human remains stored by the CWGC since at least 2009 awaiting release by the MOD Please note that the 60 do not include the BL15 or any additional remains found since the number of remains outstanding was released into the public domain.

Link

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2013/8/forthcoming-burials.aspx

Norman

[Dave T]

Norman,

Just for information I attach link to a newspaper piece regarding Sgt Maidment

http://www.andoveradvertiser.co.uk/news/10600353.Soldier_s__lost__family_is_found/

[Seadog]

Thanks Dave, there is also this from the WFA

WFA

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-people/brothers-arms/3208-leonard-maidment-a-casualty-of-marfaux.html

Norman

[Seadog]

Notification of reburials 2014 on the CWGC website

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2014/8/reburials-france.aspx

I note that the Two British soldiers of the Second World War initially believed to be Germans, but handed to the CWGC were actually found in 2008, six years ago.

Norman

[Seadog]

Three more of the discovered fallen will be buried in September 2015

CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2015/8/burial-of-world-war-1-casualties.aspx

The Welsh Guardsman will be buried here as "Known Unto God"

LEST WE FORGET 1914-1918

Norman