SMLE Brass Butt Disc

[pioneecorps]

Hi

The 1917 SMLE I have, I think has Arabic writing on the butt disc and on the metal by the breech, any ideas on this, or any of our overseas Members can translate what it says.

Gerwyn

[MikB]

Hi

The 1917 SMLE I have, I think has Arabic writing on the butt disc and on the metal by the breech, any ideas on this, or any of our overseas Members can translate what it says.

Gerwyn

Don't know about the top mark, but the bottom 3 look like a gamma and 2 lambdas (GLL) in Greek?

Regards,

MikB

[CharlieBris]

I think the symbol at the top is an Arabic letter which approximates as the letter "h" - user "shipping steel" is the forum's guru on Turkish script

- hope he looks at this.

The bottom script is the number "388".

Regards,

Charlie

[TonyE]

Your rifle is Iraqi issue from the post WWI period. The butt disc is Arabic and the lower part is the rack number, in this case 388. I don't read enough Arabic to translate toe symbol at the top.

The Iraqi rifles and ammunition came on the market a few years ago, together with Arabic marked P.'07 bayonets.

Regards

TonyE

EDIT: Our posts crossed! This is not a Turkish issued rifle though.

Cheers

TonyE

[pioneecorps]

Hi All

MikB, Charles and TonyE, thank you all for your help, it was deactivated in 1999, I have tried taken a photo of the markings by the breech, but I'm having trouble taken it.

Regards

Gerwyn

[4thGordons]

I have acouple of Iraqi marked rifles and they are usually marked on the receiver with a triangular symbol that looks like it has a question mark in it. I can only access a thumbnail at the moment - will post a full size one when I get home.

Most of the Iraq rifles seem to have BSA commercial barrels on them - with the stacked rifles logo which you may be able to make out here.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

It is an Arabic letter at the top with the numerals at the bottom, as already indicated. See linked page HERE letter shown 2nd row, 3rd from the left.

I'd be interested in seeing the Arabic markings on the receiver, if you can manage to get a decent shot. The Turks also used SMLE rifles post-war.

Cheers, S>S

[pioneecorps]

I have acouple of Iraqi marked rifles and they are usually marked on the receiver with a triangular symbol that looks like it has a question mark in it. I can only access a thumbnail at the moment - will post a full size one when I get home.

Most of the Iraq rifles seem to have BSA commercial barrels on them - with the stacked rifles logo which you may be able to make out here.

Chris

Hi Chris

Thank you for your help

My markings are on the receiver not as I said on the breech, same place as your rifle as them, but their not the same markings, mine don't have the triangle just writing, I will try again to take a photo of it and post it tomorrow.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[pioneecorps]

It is an Arabic letter at the top with the numerals at the bottom, as already indicated. See linked page HERE letter shown 2nd row, 3rd from the left.

I'd be interested in seeing the Arabic markings on the receiver, if you can manage to get a decent shot. The Turks also used SMLE rifles post-war.

Cheers, S>S

Hi S>S

Thank you for your help, I will try again tomorrow.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[Stoppage Drill]

My moment has come ! I spent years with Arab armies.

The name of the letter transliterates as "ain" and it has a phonetic value which is very hard to give in English, a bit like a hiccup. It is usually phonetically transliterated as "O" (as in "Oman") or "A" or "I" as in "Iraq" or "U" as in the names "Umar" and "Uthman" (Which are sometimes given as "Omar" and "Othman".

Easy innit ?

What the letter on it's own stands for on this disc is anybody's guess.

The actual word "ain" means "eye" and is also used to mean spring or well. Another name for well- before any Lawrence watchers correct me, is "umm" which really means "mother".

The number at the bottom is, indeed 388. Whilst Arabic alphabetic script runs right to left, a number is read left to right, same as us.

[4thGordons]

Here are two of my Iraqi marked rifles.

One (top) is a refinished WWI rifle (1917 BSA) the other (lower) is a 1936 dated rifle from the Iraqi contract placed with BSA.

One has no provision for a stock disk - the other is pictured, both rifles are marked with the Iraqi stamp the "s" in a triangle.

Here are the two marks

Here is the headstamp of the some Iraqi ammunition .303

I am interested to see what the markings on your rifle are.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Chris your photo shows another Arabic letter in the triangle, see HERE letter top row, 6th from left. Possibly an arsenal or ownership marking.?

Cheers, S>S

[Stoppage Drill]

The letter in the triangle is "jeem" which in most Arabic speaking countries has a phonetic value of "j" although it has a harder pronunciation i the Egyptian dialect (like "g" as in golf)

The curved letter is the usual isolated position letter (it is curtailed by removal of the lower loop when in continuous script.) The angular letter is a stylised version.

It (stylised version) was used in Iraq for many years on military equipment almost like our broad arrow, as it is the first letter of the word which transliterates as "jaish" which translates into English as "armed forces."

[trajan]

My moment has come!

Now the nice glowing feeling!

Another name for well- before any Lawrence watchers correct me, is "umm" which really means "mother".

Reminds me of the time when in Jordan I expressed a keen desire to visit Umm el-Jemal, a very important archaeological site, only for the nosey Jordanian waiter to ask me later why I wanted to see 'the mother of the camel?' .... That apart, be warned, though, that 'umm' is a very very very rude word in Turkish!

Trajan

[4thGordons]

Gerwyn

Might I make a photo suggestion.

Your camera probably has a symbol on it that looks like a Tulip. This is the macro setting. if you set the camera to this you might be able to get better pictures because it will allow closer focus. It appears that the problem with you your pictures is FOCUS.

There are two causes of blurring usually on pictures - focus and shake

shake is cause by movement when you depress the shutter and happens because in order to get enough light on the subject the camera uses a relatively long shutter speed. For most people anything under 1/60 of a second runs a real risk of shake -- the simplest solution is to light the subject brightly....and if possible use a tripod. However I do not think this is the problem here - I think you are probably holding the camera closer to the subject than it can focus. Try backing off a bit and focussing (and perhaps then zooming in on the area) - if you cannot zoom in that is fine - a smaller clear image will be more useful.

The other potential problem is the depth of field and where your camera is focussing. At high magnification / zoom the depth of field (the area in focus) is typically shallow, using a wide apeture (the camera will automatically do this in dim light) exacerbates the problem because that also creates a problem with depth of field so you can create a situation where the area of the object in focus is only paper thin and unless you focus on precisely what you want the result will be blurred. Most cameras set on autofocus will either focus in the centre of the viewfinder (the traditional point) OR the default setting is they will focus on the point closest to the camera (on most modern digitals) if your images are cropped from larger pictures you might be able to see this if there is another point on the picture that is in focus.

Sorry for babbling on but perhaps you could try

Backing up so you are about 3 or 4 feet from the rifle and then zooming (or take it at 3 or 4 feet and then crop the image)

Try the macro (tulip) setting

Check the point of focus.

Sorry if I am telling you things you already know but I would be interested in seeing the mark

Chris

[pioneecorps]

Gerwyn

Might I make a photo suggestion.

Your camera probably has a symbol on it that looks like a Tulip. This is the macro setting. if you set the camera to this you might be able to get better pictures because it will allow closer focus. It appears that the problem with you your pictures is FOCUS.

There are two causes of blurring usually on pictures - focus and shake

shake is cause by movement when you depress the shutter and happens because in order to get enough light on the subject the camera uses a relatively long shutter speed. For most people anything under 1/60 of a second runs a real risk of shake -- the simplest solution is to light the subject brightly....and if possible use a tripod. However I do not think this is the problem here - I think you are probably holding the camera closer to the subject than it can focus. Try backing off a bit and focussing (and perhaps then zooming in on the area) - if you cannot zoom in that is fine - a smaller clear image will be more useful.

The other potential problem is the depth of field and where your camera is focussing. At high magnification / zoom the depth of field (the area in focus) is typically shallow, using a wide apeture (the camera will automatically do this in dim light) exacerbates the problem because that also creates a problem with depth of field so you can create a situation where the area of the object in focus is only paper thin and unless you focus on precisely what you want the result will be blurred. Most cameras set on autofocus will either focus in the centre of the viewfinder (the traditional point) OR the default setting is they will focus on the point closest to the camera (on most modern digitals) if your images are cropped from larger pictures you might be able to see this if there is another point on the picture that is in focus.

Sorry for babbling on but perhaps you could try

Backing up so you are about 3 or 4 feet from the rifle and then zooming (or take it at 3 or 4 feet and then crop the image)

Try the macro (tulip) setting

Check the point of focus.

Sorry if I am telling you things you already know but I would be interested in seeing the mark

Chris

Hi Chris

No problem Mate, thank you for your help, I will try the Tulip, and taken the photo further away.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[pioneecorps]

Hi All

Thank you all again, for all the information you have given me, I hope these photos are a bit clearer.

It was deactivated in 1995 not 1999 I bought in 1997 for £95.00, not into colleting them only to have one to go with the rest of the WW1 I was collecting, it use to hang on the wall in my living room for years then I made my soldier.

I'm thinking "I know painfull" I made a bracket which screwed to the wall, to hold the rifle, I wonder if others did the same, maybe I should post a new topic on this.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[4thGordons]

The marking on the barrel and the front of the reciever appear to be proof marks.

I cannot really make anything out of the other mark unfortunately

I have messed around with your picture a bit but I cannot make anything coherent out of it.

It almost looks like a mark that has been peened or cancelled out with overmarking, or perhaps partially obscured by blows or corrosion

I tried playing with contrast and sharpening but still couldn't get anything really.

If I squint out of one eye and peer through my fingers I might just turn that into the remains of South African U property mark

but I would be less then 10% confident that it might be.

Difficulties with the photographs aside I have several Enfield markings which I have no idea definitive idea what they are so....

Chris

[pioneecorps]

The marking on the barrel and the front of the reciever appear to be proof marks.

I cannot really make anything out of the other mark unfortunately

I have messed around with your picture a bit but I cannot make anything coherent out of it.

It almost looks like a mark that has been peened or cancelled out with overmarking, or perhaps partially obscured by blows or corrosion

I tried playing with contrast and sharpening but still couldn't get anything really.

If I squint out of one eye and peer through my fingers I might just turn that into the remains of South African U property mark

but I would be less then 10% confident that it might be.

Difficulties with the photographs aside I have several Enfield markings which I have no idea definitive idea what they are so....

Chris

Hi Chris

Its not the best to see even with the naked eye, don't look as if been stamped through it.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[Stoppage Drill]

It looks to me like a stamped impression where corrosion has removed the high points. However, looking at the ouline of what is left I hazard a guess that it might originally have said "albasra". i.e. Basra.

Can you see it Trajan ? Any other Arabic speakers here ?

[shippingsteel]

I'm not sure what the marking is, but it does look remarkably like the old Turkish script for 'fabrika' (meaning factory) which I am now very accustomed to seeing on rifles & bayonets.

The letter to the left is definitely Turkish or Arabic, see HERE letter 3rd row on left. The 'fabrika' term was used to indicate arsenals or rifle factories, so could be Turkish rework mark.

The commonly seen Turkish marking AS.FA. of the 1930's rework programme is simply an abbreviation for 'Askari Fabrika', so perhaps this (partial?) mark is an earlier version of that.

The illustration below shows the 'fabrika' section in the red. This is the makers mark in the old Ottoman script that is seen on the receiver of all the German made Turkish Mauser rifles.

Cheers, S>S

[Stoppage Drill]

I think you are right SS.

I am not familiar with Ottoman script but looking at your link it is almost identical to modern Arabic, with a few varations, therefore having much the same relationship to MA as Urdu -i.e. a few extra or modified letters.

"Fabrika" isn't an Arabic word though, but it's absolutely realistic that vernacular Iraqi Arabic, after 4 centuries of Ottoman rule, would be inculcated with Turkish words.

[Story]

The letter in the triangle is "jeem" which in most Arabic speaking countries has a phonetic value of "j" although it has a harder pronunciation i the Egyptian dialect (like "g" as in golf)

The curved letter is the usual isolated position letter (it is curtailed by removal of the lower loop when in continuous script.) The angular letter is a stylised version.

It (stylised version) was used in Iraq for many years on military equipment almost like our broad arrow, as it is the first letter of the word which transliterates as "jaish" which translates into English as "armed forces."

1. I'd read somewhere in the foggy past that the Iraqi Jeem triangle was a Ba'athist thing, stamped on their toys after coming to power in '58.

2. That said, has anyone come across BSA-marked Enfields w/o the Jeem triangles, but still obviously ex-Iraqi?