Found after almost 100 years

[cfraser]

While standing at the Toronto cenotaph this month, I recalled my Gran telling me her brother died in the Great War when I was in my early teens about 40 years ago. I remember he said his name was George. That's all I had. I went on CWGC's site and found him easily.

Name: INGHAM

Initials: G L

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Lancashire Fusiliers

Unit Text: 19th Bn.

Age: 19

Date of Death: 15/07/1916

Service No: 25262

Additional information: Son of George and Emma Ingham, of 58, Grouse St., Rochdale, Lancs.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: III. E. 24.

Cemetery: Warloy baillon Communal Cemetary Extension

I googled his parents and found George's last letter home written on July 8, 1916. It was to his friend and co-worker and it decribes his first day on the Somme as a member of 19th Lancashire Fusiliers (3rd Salford Pals). They attacked the Leipzig Redoubt south of Thiepval and suffered 50% losses.The owner of the letter is the great niece of George's friend. Here's a link to the letter http://burnleygallan...am/inghamgl.htm

And the text of the letter -

July 8, 1916

Dear Alf

Excuse me being so long in writing to you. I am in the pink and best of

spirits. Charlie told me you had been inquiring about me so I thought I

should write when I had the chance. Things have been pretty hot here

lately. We went over the top last week and I shall never forget it. I lost a good

many of my chums and it was heartbreaking to see some of the wounded men.

There were many German helmets to be got but they would be in the way. We

have quite sufficient to carry. The German bayonets are awful things one

edge is like a razor and the other like a double saw. The sight of them

makes you ratty. Well Alf I hope you don't have to come up. How many more

have listed at Thorntons. I have nothing more to write about so I will

close wishing you the best of luck.

George L. Ingham

I would love to find a photo of George or more info on his military service. Perhaps a

sdgw entry?

Any info would be gratefully received.

Colin Fraser

Oakville, Ontario

Canada

[Bardess]

Hi Colin and welcome. Below is the SDGW entry for George

Name: George Leonard Ingham

Birth Place: Rochdale, Lancs

Death Date: 15 Jul 1916

Death Location: France & Flanders

Enlistment Location: Rochdale

Rank: Private

Regiment: Lancashire Fusiliers

Battalion: 19th Battalion

Number: 25262

Type of Casualty: Died of wounds

Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

[cfraser]

That was speedy! Thanks Diane.

Colin

[Blackblue]

Hi Colin,

There are a number of good sources around. I would recommend Salford Pals by Michael Stedman which specifically deals with the Salford Battalions. There are some good accounts of the 19th's actions. The History of the Lancashire Fusiliers 1914-1918 by Latter has good accounts of the 19th's actions, particularly the 1st of July 1916.

The 19th was initially in reserve on 1st July 1916 (first day of the Battle of the Somme) being the depth/reserve for the 1st Dorsets attack on Lepizig Redoubt at Thiepval. Both battalions suffered very heavily from machine gun fire even before they were able to get to the step of point in the front line. Many of the 19th were killed attempting to cross open ground to get to their start point. By the time the 19th were able to come forward to join the Dorsets there were only 2 officers and 40 men left in action. It was withdrawn to Senlis over the next few days and reorganised into 2 companies due to casualties.

The battalion was back in action around Ovillers on 11th July. They conducted a number of assaults on the German positions on the 12th and 13th and also suffered a number of counter attacks. They were withdrawn from the line on 15th July 1916. If he Died of Wounds on the 15th he may have been wounded in one of the attacks of the previous days.

Hope this helps.

Rgds

Tim D

[George Armstrong Custer]

An interesting little letter, written a week into the Somme. It sounds like George's chum Alf had written to him asking if he could get him a German helmet - further confirmation that this was the war souvenir of choice in the Great War!

George

[cfraser]

Thanks Tim - very useful info. The Salford Pals book is on its way but I don't get to open it til Christmas. I don't expect to find much detail there as I understand the rolls and pix focus on the original 1915 members. My Gr. Uncle's regimental number suggests he joined later, someone suggested from 21 battalion.

I also have Thiepval by Michal Stedman. I will hunt down Latter and have requested the 19th Bn. war diary for the archives for the Jn 28 - July 16 period. I would like to read about the actions immediately prior to July 15 so I can get some understanding of how my relative was possibly wounded.

George - I hadn't read the letter that way but you may well be right. A militaria collector I corresponded with said that he was unaware that the Germans were still using the saw bayonet as late as July '16 as the British army let it known that they would not take prisoners in possesson of such weapons. Apocryphal or true?

I wish I had had more curiosity 40 years ago when more info may have been forthcoming from relatives who have since passed.

Thanks again

Colin

[Blackblue]

Hi Colin,

I did troll through the Roll and as your say he obviously joined later with most 19th Bn men being in the 18*** series.

The 21st was a Reserve Bn so he may have passed through there on the way to an active unit. I have found that many men in the 20000 series were not necessarily posted in blocks though....with many appearing to be spread across a variety of Bns as reinforcements without any firm pattern.

My Grandfather's number was 24068 and he was a Cavalry reinforcement. Whilst there were a couple of men around his number with similar histories (Cavalry reinforcements) posted to the 9th at Gallipoli...by and large they had very diverse service histories and were sent to a variety of operational Bns.

Looking at men with the same number series as his on Soldiers Died may assist with establishing whether there is any sort of pattern.

Rgds

Tim D

[cfraser]

The owner of the letter, Ms. JackieWaters of Memory Catchers, has generously sent me the letter stating that her Great Uncle Alf would have wanted that.......I am speechless at her gift.

The reverse of the letter is addressed

"Pvt. G. L. Ingham 25262

A Coy. 3 Platoon 19th Service Batt. Lanc. Fus.

BEF

France"

As I noted, the letter refers to the first day on the Somme on July 1, when "A" company was nearly annihilated. The CO was wounded at duty and all three platoon commanders were killed. The Battalion war diary (http://1914-1918.inv...1) notes that the first wave of A company charged a German trench with 40 men and only 4 got within 10 yards of it.

What an extraordindary calm and undramatic tone George adopts in writing about that day.

Colin

[seaJane]

What an amazing gift, Colin, Not surprised you're speechless.

[cfraser]

I sent in a better scan of the letter to this site in case anyone wants to look at it more carefully. The article on the officer below is on george's platoon CO who was killed on July 1.

http://www.lancs-fus...thBN/19thBn.htm

Colin

[trajan]

... A militaria collector I corresponded with said that he was unaware that the Germans were still using the saw bayonet as late as July '16 as the British army let it known that they would not take prisoners in possesson of such weapons. Apocryphal or true?

Carter, German bayonets, vol 1, 34-36, discusses this issue. Although some German soldiers were reporting as early as 19th July 1915 that those men captured with saw-backs were being shot out of hand, an official enquiry reporting on 2nd July 1917 basically said there was no truth to this story, although that evidently failed to convince the average Herman the Hun... Carter says that although saw-back production was effectively halted 25 April 1917, it was not until 15th September 1917 that they began to be officially withdrawn from front-line service. On 3rd December 1917, orders were issued that sawbacks were to be provided only to rear-echelon communications troops, garrison troops and prison guards, and training units, and unit commanders were made responsible for making certain no sawbacks were in front line service. Finally, on 6th January 1918, a programme was instituted to remove the sawbacks from existing examples.

So, yes, sawbacks were still in use in July 1916!

Trajan

[cfraser]

Thanks for the details. While I had no doubt that they were still in service in mid-1916 given George's words, the additional info is interesting . Also the letter shows the importance the British Tommy gave to these weapons as its worth a quote to a friend at home, and perhaps a bit of veiled warning as to how bad things were.

Colin

[healdav]

Carter, German bayonets, vol 1, 34-36, discusses this issue. Although some German soldiers were reporting as early as 19th July 1915 that those men captured with saw-backs were being shot out of hand, an official enquiry reporting on 2nd July 1917 basically said there was no truth to this story, although that evidently failed to convince the average Herman the Hun... Carter says that although saw-back production was effectively halted 25 April 1917, it was not until 15th September 1917 that they began to be officially withdrawn from front-line service. On 3rd December 1917, orders were issued that sawbacks were to be provided only to rear-echelon communications troops, garrison troops and prison guards, and training units, and unit commanders were made responsible for making certain no sawbacks were in front line service. Finally, on 6th January 1918, a programme was instituted to remove the sawbacks from existing examples.

So, yes, sawbacks were still in use in July 1916!

Trajan

In "All Quiet on the Western Front", Kit tells the new recruits in the strongest terms to have the saw edge ground off their bayonets as they are a death sentence.

[garfyboy]

Hi Colin, I am sitting here in disbelief, I stumbled across this thread whilst having a look around and knew the name straight away- I own George's memorial plaque and it is definitely his because it is a unique name on cwgc!!!

I have researched George and compiled a file on him as I do with all my plaques/medals but not much to report as no service records survived.

As a previous member stated, I believe his fatal wounds were from the attack on ovillers on the 12/13th July.

It's getting late here now, I will take a photograph of the plaque tomorrow and post a pic, if you wish for a better quality one please pm me with your email address and I'll send you one

Andy

[trajan]

...In "All Quiet on the Western Front", Kit tells the new recruits in the strongest terms to have the saw edge ground off their bayonets as they are a death sentence...

Indeed! BUT Carter has this to say on the matter:

"These stories [i.e., what would happen to a soldier caught with a sawback] grew out of all proportion and have become part of accepted history. Over ten years after the war... 'All Quiet on the Western Front; was published in Germany in which the narrator comments..." Then comes the full quote itself.

Carter does note that a Bavarian account dated 19th July 1915 observed that there were "confirmed" stories of German soldiers being shot if captured with a sawback, but then, with reference to an official Bavarian report of 2nd July 1917, adds the comment that this indicated there was:

"(N)o basis to the reports that men captured with saw-backs had been mistreated. However,since it was the general opinion of the troops at the front that the weapons were to dangerous to retain , they should be replaced."

Either way, what is clear from the letter quoted in the OP is that poor old Tommy Atkins certainly didn't like the look of the things. And it is equally clear that by 1917, enough German soldiers feared for their lives if caught with one that the responsible officials in the Bavarian, Prussian, etc., War Ministries, felt obliged to withdraw them from front-line service, and then set about removing the sawback from those bayonets that had them.

That aside, one thing that tends to be forgotten is that the sawbacks were essentially pioneer bayonets, designed and made specifically for cutting brushwood, and as such would not have been seen in use on the end of a rifle on a regular or common basis. I have no doubt that when so used, they would cause a nasty wound, but one thing we I have never found a reliable report on, is whether or not a sawback thrust into soft tissue did in reality result in a wound that caused more internal damage and/or was harder to treat than a wound caused by a regular bayonet.

Trajan

[bob lembke]

That aside, one thing that tends to be forgotten is that the sawbacks were essentially pioneer bayonets, designed and made specifically for cutting brushwood, and as such would not have been seen in use on the end of a rifle on a regular or common basis. I have no doubt that when so used, they would cause a nasty wound, but one thing we I have never found a reliable report on, is whether or not a sawback thrust into soft tissue did in reality result in a wound that caused more internal damage and/or was harder to treat than a wound caused by a regular bayonet.

Trajan

I just found this thread, and was about to post the above. I am not a bayonet expert, but I have studied the Pioniere closely for years. My father spent most of the war in Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) and previously was a volunteer Pionier at Gallipoli.

As far as I know the sawback bayonet was the standard issue to Pioniere, and I do not know of them being issued to other soldiers. As Trajan said, they were made to provide each Pionier a light-duty wood saw. The story of Allied soldiers killing soldiers found with them is very prevalent, and I suspect that there probably was something to the story. One poster above mentioned that an "official inquiry" determined that the story was not true; one might ask whose inquiry, and when.

As early as Fall 1916, at Verdun, my father's flame company did not carry rifles at all into combat, only perhaps a few carbines carried by NCOs. All the men had crew-served weapons, or were trained grenadiers. So they might not have even carried bayonets. They favored short spades that had been ground "razor-sharp", as my father described it, for close-in fighting in the confines of trenches, a rifle with a long bayonet was just too long. (Each EM/OR carried a P 08 Parabellum.) On Hill 304 on a pre-dawn trench raid my father tried to save the life of a sleepy French officer emerging from a dugout, speaking to him in his excellent French, and reaching for his pocket pistol; the officer made a poor carreer choice and instead shot my father in the hand with the small-caliber pistol, and my father's sergeant hit the Frenchie with his spade, my Father remembering the spade going thru the officer's helmet and stopping its progress in his teeth. My father got some cranium contents down the back of his neck.

My father's company commander was an infantry officer, and truly terrible and cowardly. (Have a spectacular story on that. He never went into combat.) He used to ridicule the Pioniere and obtained some rifles and insisted in drilling his men with the rifles and in infantry drill. Once, during this drill, conducted by this officer while he was drunk at 3-4 AM, my father and other men, quite exasperated, shot the CO off his horse and killed him. The matter was carefully investigated, with their barracks surrounded with infantry, and at the end seemingly the brass determined that a storm company was more valuable than a rotten officer, and the infantry pickets were withdrawn and large barrels of beer appeared for the men. (I have further detail, but am keeping them to myself until I publish the whole story.)

These men did not want to carry rifles and bayonets into the attack.

I know that I have wandered away a bit from the narrow target, but I think that most of you would enjoy the above stories. I don't know how many Pals we have left who can relate directly-connected oral history. My father loved the war (one of the 2%), and talked about it often, and the stories were burned in my brain at an early age.

Bob Lembke

[trajan]

Cheers Bob!

I have a dim recollection of reading somewhere (but I don't think in Carter) that only 5% or so of the 95/05's were made as sawbacks for pioneer issue, but for obvious reasons they do tend to make up a larger proportion of those that were 'souvenired' and so are still around today - a guestimate would suggest 35-40% of those on ebay and the like. What did interest me in the OP was the reference (IIRC) to the 'razor sharp' edge. WWI bayonets are thrusting weapons and so generally don't have a sharp edge, but Carter, p. 32, says that on 16th September 1915, Berlin sent a reminder to Infantry and Jaeger regiments with a new order to all other troops with 98/05's that these were to sharpened on the true and the false (upper) edge.

Trajan

[garfyboy]

Here are pics as promised

[cfraser]

Sorry to skip over the helpful bayonet info - very interesting - but I HAVE to respond to Mash Valley. Another amazing coincidence! Thank you so much for your generosity in posting the pictures. I own the plaque for my other Great Uncle KIA in 1918 but George's went to the other side of the family, and thence presumably to eBay. Sad but I won't judge.

Its great to see the plaque and know it is treasured. If you ever decide to part with it I would consider it a personal favour if you would PM me and give me first refusal.

I too have done a lot of research on George and the 3rd Salfords prior to finding the letter I knew nothing of the Somme or the Salfords....or I am disgraced to say, George. Now its my life's ambition to stand at George's grave at Warloy Baillon. I would be happy to send you the info I have pulled togetehr if you wish (eg 19th LF war diary for the Ovillers period found through the generosity of another member on this site).

I am looking for a photo of George as I would like to sculpt his portrait. If you are interested I have a carte de visite of his Dad in LF uniform c. 1880 so the service ran in the family.

Thanks again and hope we can stay in touch.

Cheers

Colin Fraser

in far off Canada

[leefer]

Great story.....love the letter home.

He was being very diplomatic when saying it is getting hot over here!

What a brave man.....ang great relly to have.

[nedsir]

Sorry to skip over the helpful bayonet info - very interesting - but I HAVE to respond to Mash Valley. Another amazing coincidence! Thank you so much for your generosity in posting the pictures. I own the plaque for my other Great Uncle KIA in 1918 but George's went to the other side of the family, and thence presumably to eBay. Sad but I won't judge.

Its great to see the plaque and know it is treasured. If you ever decide to part with it I would consider it a personal favour if you would PM me and give me first refusal.

I too have done a lot of research on George and the 3rd Salfords prior to finding the letter I knew nothing of the Somme or the Salfords....or I am disgraced to say, George. Now its my life's ambition to stand at George's grave at Warloy Baillon. I would be happy to send you the info I have pulled togetehr if you wish (eg 19th LF war diary for the Ovillers period found through the generosity of another member on this site).

I am looking for a photo of George as I would like to sculpt his portrait. If you are interested I have a carte de visite of his Dad in LF uniform c. 1880 so the service ran in the family.

Thanks again and hope we can stay in touch.

Cheers

Colin Fraser

in far off Canada

Colin I don't know if this is any use to you but there might be a chance that George's photo might be in one of the local papers of the time. Some of them printed photos of men who were KIA or wounded. Hopefully some kind person in the area near where he lived will go to their local Library where newspapers of the time are kept and look up the papers for the date from the time he was killed up to about 6 months after. I found my own grandfathers picture this way. Good luck, and I hope the person with the death penny does the decent thing and either sells it to you, or gives it to where it rightfully should be.

Ned

[cfraser]

Thanks for the idea Ned. I was hoping for that and I tried it at long range with the Rochdale library. I think they made a cursory search and they found a listing of his name in the Rochdale fallen. I am hoping that someone local could have a more diligent look in the Rochdale paper for the period July15 to October as my understanding is that Somme deaths were often reported months later.

Its pretty hard for me to press the library staff harder from this side of the Atlantic and I suspect they only looked around July 15. So if anyone local is up to the challenge please let me know. There could be a few beers in it for you.

Re. the death penny - Andy and I have come to an arrangement on this and we are both perfectly happy with it. I just want to say that because he has been completely honourable and above reproach in bringing the penny to my attention and in how he has responded to me in our personal communications since. We are sharing our research on George and I have a new friend. My view is that the penny, and the letter, have both served to perpetuate George's memory.

That's what the memorial plaques were intended to do after all. At this point I am thrilled to have photos of it and at a yet to be determined point in the future I'm sure it will be coming home.

Thanks

Colin

[nedsir]

Thanks for the idea Ned. I was hoping for that and I tried it at long range with the Rochdale library. I think they made a cursory search and they found a listing of his name in the Rochdale fallen. I am hoping that someone local could have a more diligent look in the Rochdale paper for the period July15 to October as my understanding is that Somme deaths were often reported months later.

Its pretty hard for me to press the library staff harder from this side of the Atlantic and I suspect they only looked around July 15. So if anyone local is up to the challenge please let me know. There could be a few beers in it for you.

Re. the death penny - Andy and I have come to an arrangement on this and we are both perfectly happy with it. I just want to say that because he has been completely honourable and above reproach in bringing the penny to my attention and in how he has responded to me in our personal communications since. We are sharing our research on George and I have a new friend. My view is that the penny, and the letter, have both served to perpetuate George's memory.

That's what the memorial plaques were intended to do after all. At this point I am thrilled to have photos of it and at a yet to be determined point in the future I'm sure it will be coming home.

Thanks

Colin

Colin

Delighted with that news on the penny. And I hope that someone from the area you mentioned will duly respond. Believe me if it was to do with the Belfast area I would have been more than willing to look it up for you. Highest regards to you and all the very best.

Ned

[cfraser]

Here is a 15 post blog I put together for my family summarising my research on George. You may find some of it too intro (eg explaining what the pals were) but its good to have everything in one place.

Couldn't have done it without the generosity of members here either.

http://3rdsalfords.b...y-maternal.html

Colin

[cfraser]

A bit more to the story - here is George's will accessed under the new wills program. The will was made out June 27, 1916, 2 days before the original date for the Somme attack.

Colin

FAEK060058.pdf