Butcher bayonet

[jscott]

Hi all

I recently acquired a nice German 98/05 sawback bayonet which had a few interesting features which I couldn't quite place. The bayonet has the typical fraktur marks, and is market "W 16" (presumably for Prussia).

The first feature that I haven't seen before is the absence of a maker's name/ mark. Did the Germans have a similar concept to the "private purchase" bayonets? Or could this have been a result of the greater demand for bayonets in 1916 that may have seen this step being skipped?

The second thing I noticed was that the bayonet had been field sharpened, not only on the blade, but also on the false edge. I have a 1915 butcher bayonet which has no edge at all here, and a 1917 butcher which has an edge here but is unsharpened. Is there any particular reason that the false edge would have been sharpened? Admittedly the butcher doesn't look like the most penetrative bayonet with its blade widening to the point, so maybe the intention was just to create a more effective weapon? The sharpening is not excessive but its definitely sharp.

Finally, the bayonet comes with what I think is probably the original leather frog, which is in good condition although it has clearly seen some use. It is not the typical 98/05 frog, for whilst it generally follows the normal shape it has no rivets and is entirely stitched. I think it would be impossible to remove now as it fits very tightly around the bayonet and suspect it could even have been sown on to the bayonet as I cant imagine it was ever loose enough to fit.

Any thoughts on these points would be much appreciated, I'm a little stumped.

Thanks, J

[59165]

I had one exactly the same & some git told me it was a Turkish purchase.

I really don't know but,hopefully,our main man Mr.shopping steel will tell you,if he finds this.

Where mine was found,it can't be Turkish.

[shippingsteel]

The first feature that I haven't seen before is the absence of a maker's name/ mark.

The second thing I noticed was that the bayonet had been field sharpened, not only on the blade, but also on the false edge.

Finally, the bayonet comes with what I think is probably the original leather frog, which is in good condition although it has clearly seen some use.

Hi J.

Surprisingly it's not that unusual to find S98/05's without a makers mark. While most of them were stamped with all the normal markings, there were always some exceptions to the rule.

During the early war the Germans were short of bayonets, and manufacture was contracted out too many smaller firms who produced 'piece work' or individual parts for later assembly.

Sometimes these were marked firstly by the producer and then later by the finisher or final assembler, or in some cases even by the retailer of the finished product. It was a little chaotic.

And then you have the blades that missed being marked altogether - probably just something that happened in the rush. All we can really say is that yours was accepted for Prussian use.

The sharpening of the false edge was something that came in during the war after some of the earlier experiences. And as you suggested it had a lot to do with increasing the penetration.

In September of 1915 the War Ministry in Berlin amended the regulations for the maintenance of these bayonets to ensure the cutting edge and the start of the false edge was sharpened.

I can't help you much in regard to the frog but it could well be the original. If so I wouldn't be surprised if it was now a very tight fit, as leather of that age would normally have shrunk some.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

I had one exactly the same & some git told me it was a Turkish purchase.

Mr.shopping steel will tell you,if he finds this.

Where mine was found,it can't be Turkish.

Actually I don't do much shopping .... but when I do it's usually for bayonets .... or for books about bayonets .... or the bits and pieces for cleaning bayonets .....

And your right about the Turkish 'bit from the git' - thats purely BS as you suspected. The bulk of the wartime bayonets sent to the Turks were made by Waffenfabrik Mauser.

Cheers, S>S

[59165]

Actually I don't do much shopping ....

Oops

[jscott]

Thanks S/S - I always appreciate your views on these matters! Very helpful indeed.

I was quite happy to finally obtain a sawback for a decent price - I always find it quite amazing how much people charge for them, especially as they appear to be fairly common. I see statistics saying that they only consistute approx 6% of the total 98/05s produced but they seem to be much more common than that now (perhaps soldiers were more likely to bring home a sawback than a normal blade if they had the option??)

And 59165, glad to see that you dont have a Turkish purchase... no-one seems to like them!

[trajan]

The bulk of the wartime bayonets sent to the Turks were made by Waffenfabrik Mauser. Cheers, S>S

Would just add that all the 98/05's I have seen in Turkey and Syria are indeed Waffenfabrik Mauser - except for one, a sawback with no maker's mark, no spine markings at all, but a crowned inspection mark on the pommel. It looks ok and I thought of buying it (I have a spare metal imitation leather sawback scabbard it would fit) but the asking price was TL 450 = so about US$ 210....

Trajan

PS: Well, S>S, if you do shop for bayonets then shopping steel is rather appropriate!

[Cnock]

Hi,

I have a S98/05 sawback with all markings except the maker's name, and the bayonet never left Flanders

regards,

Cnock

[shippingsteel]

I was quite happy to finally obtain a sawback for a decent price - I always find it quite amazing how much people charge for them, especially as they appear to be fairly common.

I see statistics saying that they only consistute approx 6% of the total 98/05s produced but they seem to be much more common than that now

(perhaps soldiers were more likely to bring home a sawback than a normal blade if they had the option??)

While the sawbacks are a quite nice looking bayonet, they are fairly common - the prices asked have nothing to do with rarity, but more so with the demand from collectors.

It is the propaganda story that has made the sawbacks so sought after. Everyone has heard the supposed story behind them and so would like to have one in the collection.

The bit about them only comprising 6% of all S98/05 bayonets that were made is also total BS. This comes from the belief they were only ever issued to the NCO's in the line.

While they may only have been issued to the NCO's at some stages in particular regiments, their distribution was certainly not just restricted to them. Entire units had sawbacks.

The Pioneer regiments and other lines of communication troops used them for what they were, just a handy tool for cutting brush and other timber encountered in their daily work.

It is interesting when you look at the German response to the propaganda campaign, to find that they simply redeployed the sawbacks to other garrison and training units in the rear.

Sometimes these units were fully equipped with the sawback bayonets, and I believe there was a stipulation that some of these type units maintain a level of at least 50% sawbacks.

This was done so that sufficient plain bladed bayonets could be freed up to allow newly formed units to proceed to the front fully equipped. Later in the war the sawbacks were removed.

Which is the truly ironic part of this whole saga. In reality the sawback removed (Säge abgeschliffen) versions are the rarer types, as only a portion of the sawbacks were ground off.

But these do not command near the same prices as the sawbacks achieve. They also saw more service as they stayed in regular use at the front, while the saws cowered in the rear.!

I don't know what it is but there's something about the 'mit Säge abgeschliffen' that fascinates me, and I always seem to have far more of them in the collection than I do the sawbacks.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Glad to hear it - the sawback removed is next on my list (well, that and a s14)...

Would you say that a similar thing has happened with hooked quillion p07s? Whilst they do seem to be a lot scarcer than sawback 98/05s there are still quite a few available for purchase whenever I check so they cant be that rare, and the prices they command (especially anything unit marked and ESPECIALLY where Australian marked) seem exorbitant.

[shippingsteel]

Glad to hear it - the sawback removed is next on my list (well, that and a s14)...

Would you say that a similar thing has happened with hooked quillion p07s? Whilst they do seem to be a lot scarcer than sawback 98/05s there are still quite a few available for purchase whenever I check so they cant be that rare, and the prices they command (especially anything unit marked and ESPECIALLY where Australian marked) seem exorbitant.

Here is one of my S98/05's with the sawback removed. This is just an average example, but it is interesting as it is an alter Art version from 1915, still retaining its 'high ears' profile.

Its a little different situation with the hookies. While they are not rare, they are certainly scarce - much, much scarcer than the everyday P1907, so part of their premium is deserved.

But I do think the current prices are getting close to the point of being ridiculous. For me again its a bit like the sawback removeds, in this case I go for the hook quillon removeds.!

I personally feel they have a bit more history and certainly would have stayed in service longer than any of the hookies, many of which only survived because they remained at home.

The main reason we keep seeing so many hookies on the market, is actually because of the prices. People are quite happy to part with them if they can get the kind of cash on offer.

But the real scary part is the number of faked and reproed varieties that keep on surfacing. Keen buyers do get desperate and seem to fall for these on a regular basis, so be careful.!

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Yes I don't think I'll be buying a hookie any time soon. I have a 1910 quillon removed version, and also a 1915 with no clearance hole, and agree that these would likley have seen a lot more service than most hooked quillon p07s. Having said that Id love to get an early lithgow hookie one day but Im going to need some serious luck because Im certainly not paying the £5000 or more that they seem to go for...

Looks like your sawback removed bayonet is in nice condition - do you usually only go for ones with scabbards? The 98/05 is definitely an interesting looking bayonet with the flared point, not entirely sure why they adopted that shape.

[trajan]

It is not the typical 98/05 frog, for whilst it generally follows the normal shape it has no rivets and is entirely stitched. I think it would be impossible to remove now as it fits very tightly around the bayonet and suspect it could even have been sown on to the bayonet as I cant imagine it was ever loose enough to fit.

As S>S pointed out, the leather may have shrunk, but it might also be that rust has generated between the scabbard and frog. I have a Sudanese dagger where rust generated between the blade and the leather scabbard and the two stuck together. My solution was to leave it in a reasoanably humid area for a year (yes, a year!) after which the blade came out freely. I am not saying this would work with yours, but you might consider it - BUT, only if you are desperate to get the frog off to check for any scabbard markings. If there are scabbard markings, these should be visible on the locket between the throat and the frog stud, and so a gentle amount of humidity for a while plus a bit of gentle prising should reveal if this is the case. That said, my own practice is to leave 'sticky' frogs as they are.

Trajan

[jscott]

Hi Trajan

I just had another look to confirm, and it appears that the frog is definitely not stuck or rusted. The scabbard is in great condition retaining nearly all of its original finish and the frog moves freely for a cm or so in either direction. There are no scabbard markings. I suspect that even if the leather has shrunk this frog was always a very tight fit, there would only be 1-2mm at most between its size and the circumference of the scabbard.

I imagine it must have been quite a nice moment when you finally prised the dagger free from its scabbard!

J

[shippingsteel]

I have a 1910 quillon removed version, and also a 1915 with no clearance hole ...

The 98/05 is definitely an interesting looking bayonet with the flared point, not entirely sure why they adopted that shape.

Sounds like you're getting a nice collection together - its always good to wait for those 'special' ones to come along - they are a bit more valuable than the everyday.

Regarding the heavier point found on the S98/05, the design is simply a progression of the earlier 'utility' bayonets that the Germans liked to issue to their Pioneers.

When this model first came in the idea was to issue the sawed version to Pioneer and Railway troops, and the plain blade to the Foot Artillery and Telegraph troops.

It was never going to be solely an Infantry bayonet, but later it was found to be the best design they had for the job, so it then became much more widely distributed.

This bit below taken from Carter's good book that looks specifically at these models, the 98/02 and 98/05.

"The design of the S98/05 is an obvious development of the S98/02 ... a broad heavy point was thought essential for using the cutting edge in hewing and chopping ..."

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Thanks S/S - thats very interesting. I would have thought that the heavier point may have made firing a rifle (with bayonet mounted) more difficult, but given I have never fired a rifle with a bayonet attached I have nothing to base that on. Which book of Carter's are you referring to below? I am really keen to get some of his books but find they are hard to locate.

[shippingsteel]

Which book of Carter's are you referring to below? I am really keen to get some of his books but find they are hard to locate.

They are all well out of print so you need to track down some used copies. You can often find them on ebay etc or for sale at militaria fairs and so on.

The one I quoted from is probably the 'bible' as far as the butcher bayonets are concerned. It is called "German Bayonets - The Models 98/02 and 98/05".

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Great - thanks S/S. I will keep an eye open for it.

[jscott]

S/S - thanks again for the tip. I just managed to snaffle Carter's book for a very reasonable price on ebay.

Looking forward to reading it!

J