Thomas WHISTON MM RAMC

[Alan Graham]

It has been family folklore that my Great Grandfather won his Military Medal when he rescued a wounded officer from the field of battle. Where or when or the truth of why has never been know.

Thomas, a printer by trade, never talked about what happened. He was proud of his medals and would polish them every Sunday. He died in 1930 of print poisoning working for the News Chronicle, now the Daily Mail.

Details I have:

Thomas WHISTON (dob: 2.11.1882)

Pte 39227 RAMC

Arrived France 27.9.15

Awarded the Victory, British & 15 Star

London Gazette, 9^th Dec 1916 list him being awarded the Military Medal.

He was badly wounded in the stomach by shrapnel in 1918. This resulted in the removal of his navel.

I would appreciate help finding out a little more about my Great Grandfather's war service and to establish some details about the MM he was awarded. Being RAMC I know it can be difficult to track down details. I have no idea where he served other than knowing the arrival date in France.

[ss002d6252]

As a rough guide the MM awards usually appear in the gazette 3-4 months after the award. Unless you are very lucky and can find a mention of the citation for the Military Medal in either a local newspaper, a battalion war diary or in regimental museum record then unfortunately your out of luck.

[Stebie9173]

If you haven't already done so it may be worth downloading his Military Medal card from the National Archives website as it may well give his unit, which would be the start towards finding out where and when it was awarded. These cards are not on Ancestry as the National Archives have not held these for some years now.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=6500397&queryType=1&resultcount=1

Steve.

[BJanman]

Hi Alan

39227 Pte T Whiston is on a list I have of men who were awarded medals serving with the 25th Division. He is listed as serving with the 76th Field Ambulance, and he was awarded the MM for his actions at the Battle of the Somme 1916.

The 76th Field Ambulance war diary may provide further clues as to what he did to receive the award. The diary is held at the National Archive under the reference number WO 95/2239.

Regards

Barbara

[Alan Graham]

Thank you all for your replies.

His MM record does not show a unit, just RAMC. The only extra on the card is what I assume is a reference: 68/121/80 which is written in the top right hand side of the card.

Barbara:

Your information is more than I have to date. Is this from the 25th Division history by Lt Col Kinard-Smith? I will follow up with a visit to the Archives to look at the 76th Field Ambulance war diary.

Looking at the movements of the 25th Division it has occured to me that if Thomas was still with his unit in the early part of 1918 he would have been involved with the Battle of Bailleul. His younger brother had died and had been buried in Bailleul earlier in the year. I wonder if he would have know, been able to visit the graveside or how bitter it must have been to see the land lost to the enermy during the battle.

Again thanks for the help with which way to look. Any more snippits of information will always be welcomed.

[Alan Graham]

Hi Alan

39227 Pte T Whiston is on a list I have of men who were awarded medals serving with the 25th Division. He is listed as serving with the 76th Field Ambulance, and he was awarded the MM for his actions at the Battle of the Somme 1916.

The 76th Field Ambulance war diary may provide further clues as to what he did to receive the award. The diary is held at the National Archive under the reference number WO 95/2239.

Regards

Barbara

I have tried to look up the NA for the ref: WO 95/2239 but it comes back as no trace. Can anyone tell me if it is there as I may be searching the wrong way. I hope to get to Kew tomorrow if it is there. Many thanks.

[BJanman]

Is this from the 25th Division history by Lt Col Kinard-Smith?

Ooh yes it is from the 25th Divisional History. I haven't read the book yet so do not know if he is mentioned in the text, I just took the names from the list for my RAMC database to list the men with their unit as this is the vital information for family members to trace relatives war service.

The war diary reference is correct, it can be found in here

Good luck

Barbara

[Alan Graham]

Ooh yes it is from the 25th Divisional History. I haven't read the book yet so do not know if he is mentioned in the text, I just took the names from the list for my RAMC database to list the men with their unit as this is the vital information for family members to trace relatives war service.

The war diary reference is correct, it can be found in here

Good luck

Barbara

I'm a bit late to book access to the diary for tomorrow, may just 'wing it' and hope it's available. Many thanks again for the help. Alan

[sotonmate]

Alan

Order it as soon as you get there tomorrow,before doing anything else,even if you have already made a maximum pre-order ! If it isn't with you within the hour ask the Enquiries where it is and they will see that you get it before the day is out. I have had people come up to me and ask if they can have a look in something that I have ordered,on other occasions there is a Post-it note in my box asking to return a file to Enquiries when I have finished with it rather than to the Returns counter.

Sotonmate

[Alan Graham]

Had a very productive day at the National Archives. I now have 474 imagaes of the War Diary of the 76th Field Ambulance to look through..!

My Great Gandfather gets a short mention, between the weather report, the fact the officers' mess had shell damage and a discussion about stretcher routes.

I quote: Location Bouzincourt, 9am 16.10.1916:

'Pte WHISTON of our FA awarded Military Medal in orders.'

Has anyone any idea what time span would be likely between an event and being mention in orders? Also are orders available to be seen or would that be relating to another units war diary?

I ask this because amongst the diary was one copied page from another units war diary of a MM being awarded. It was headed ANZAC and stood out as being different. It had full details of the event and no doubt was sent so that the soliders unit was aware of why the medal was awarded.

If Thomas saved an officer from a local unit, other than his own RAMC, that unit may have a similer entry in its war diary. At least now I have a better idea as to the date he won the medal and with research and some luck I may track down a fuller mention.

Thanks again for the help and advice so far.

Alan

[ralphjd]

Alan. Found mention of all four of my MM winners (casualties)(including a RAMC recipient) in my local paper in the local studies library. Ralph.

[Alan Graham]

Ralph, Looking up papers is one avenue I haven't been able to do, as yet. Thomas worked, before and after the war, as a printer for the Daily Chronicle so if he should get a mention it would be in his own paper, surely... Other than that I'll try and track down the local paper for Custom House/Canning Town area of the east end. He was a little publicity shy. Rumour had it he once rescued someone from a canal then walked away. The local rag had him down as a mystery hero. Cheers, Alan

[Alan Graham]

Made some progress today whilst looking through the War Diary:

Location Bouzincourt, 9am 12.10.1916

I quote:

'Recommend Capt OLIVER & Pte WHISTON for work at attack on STOFFEL REDOUBT (immediate reward)'

Not quite sure of the words I have bracketed.

I assume the location should read STUFF REDOUBT.

The following is from the CWGC website:

Stuff Redoubt, due east of the Schwaben Redoubt, was just one of a group of formidable German field fortifications located in the area north of Thiepval, protecting the crest of the ridge. A limited British footing in the redoubt had been established on 27 September but it had subsequently proved impossible to drive out the remaining defenders. The 10th Cheshires (25th Division) stormed the northern face of the stronghold in the early afternoon of 9 October; first objectives were reached at 12.42 pm; the entire position was ultimately captured resulting in four German officers and 123 other ranks taken prisoner. On the afternoon of 14 October the 8th Loyal North Lancs (who had relieved the 10th Cheshires) secured a position called 'The Mounds' (to the north of Stuff Redoubt) which had good observation over Grandcourt.

My next line of inquiry will be to see if this Capt Oliver got himself a better gong which may have some details attached and/or find the War Diary for the 10th Cheshires to see if they had any officers saved by the RAMC.

I feel I'm getting very close to having a story to tell Thomas' decendants who are now scattered across the globe.

[Stebie9173]

I would think Captain Oliver would be Captain Harold Gordon Oliver, M.C. (Gardon per MIC) shown on the Medal Index Cards as with 76th Field Ambulance and going to France on 25-9-1915.

His MIC shows three addresses:

1) London Hospital, East London

2) Moorside, Sidmouth, Devon

3) Edgefield, St Peters, Jersey, Channel Islands

His Military Cross citation in the London Gazette of 25-11-1916 reads:

Capt. Harold Gordon Oliver, R.A.M.C.

For conspicuous gallantry. and devotion to duty. He organised and led stretcher parties under very heavy fire with great

courage and determination.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29837/supplements/11542

An immediate award was an award authorised by the Corps Commander and generally for specific acts of bravery, as opposed to cumulative leadership or good work awards which were generally shown in the New Years Honours or King's Birthday Honours lists.

Steve.

[Alan Graham]

Hi Steve,

That must be the same guy.

It does beg the question why only he and my Great Grandfather were the only two to get medals. More to the point I can understand the officer in charge getting something but why only one of many in his command?

Cheers, you have been a great help.

Alan

[Stebie9173]

John Hartley's Stockport memorial site has a short article on the 10th Cheshire's attack on Stuff Redoubt:

http://www.stockport1914-1918.co.uk/battle_report.php?name=captureofstuffredoubt

Five officers are shown in the Time s Casualty list of 19-10-1916:

Died of Wounds

Sec. Lt. William Hunter, DoW 10-10-1916 with 10th Bn.

Wounded

Sec. Lt. Lawrence Layton Crisp

Sec. Lt. Horace Edgar Dummer (1896-1964, lived at Wembley Park) See: http://www.bobcopeland.net/all-o/p699.htm#i26832

Sec. Lt. David Conwil Evans

Sec. Lt. William Alfred Wilson, Prev. Sgt RAMC, Comm. 8-8-1916, Sec Lt 10th Cheshires, later 1st Cheshires

The 25th Division's History's notes on the battle show a Sec Lt Wilson and a Sec Lt Evans involved in the attack, but these are common names. I can't guarantee that this is the right "set" of officer casualties. Beware of Red Herrings!

It appears that Sec. Lt. Wilson was awarded the M.C.:

2nd Lt. William Alfred Wilson, Ches. R.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He led his company with great courage and initiative, capturing two lines of trenches. Later, he materially assisted in repelling an enemy counter-attack. He was severely wounded.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29898/pages/463

It seems likely that the M.C. refers to the action on 9-10-1916.

It is also possible that casualties from the 8th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment could have been the ones which Thomas helped to rescue.

Steve

[Alan Graham]

John Hartley's Stockport memorial site has a short article on the 10th Cheshire's attack on Stuff Redoubt:

http://www.stockport...eofstuffredoubt

Five officers are shown in the Time s Casualty list of 19-10-1916:

Died of Wounds

Sec. Lt. William Hunter, DoW 10-10-1916 with 10th Bn.

Wounded

Sec. Lt. Lawrence Layton Crisp

Sec. Lt. Horace Edgar Dummer (1896-1964, lived at Wembley Park) See: http://www.bobcopela...p699.htm#i26832

Sec. Lt. David Conwil Evans

Sec. Lt. William Alfred Wilson, Prev. Sgt RAMC, Comm. 8-8-1916, Sec Lt 10th Cheshires, later 1st Cheshires

The 25th Division's History's notes on the battle show a Sec Lt Wilson and a Sec Lt Evans involved in the attack, but these are common names. I can't guarantee that this is the right "set" of officer casualties. Beware of Red Herrings!

It appears that Sec. Lt. Wilson was awarded the M.C.:

2nd Lt. William Alfred Wilson, Ches. R.

For conspicuous gallantry in action. He led his company with great courage and initiative, capturing two lines of trenches. Later, he materially assisted in repelling an enemy counter-attack. He was severely wounded.

http://www.london-ga...29898/pages/463

It seems likely that the M.C. refers to the action on 9-10-1916.

It is also possible that casualties from the 8th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment could have been the ones which Thomas helped to rescue.

Steve

Thanks Steve (a bit late, sorry...)

I will use this info to check against the war diaries when I get a chance to look at them. The diary for the 10th Bn Cheshires (WO95/2243) also has the 8th Bn Loyal Nth Lancashire in the box. Hopefully when I get the chance to get back up to Kew it will be avaiable and not on a pile due for 'sorting'.

I have been looking at the 76th Field Ambulance War Diary again and it occured to me for Capt Oliver to get his medal another officer would need to see what happened, or is that not the case?

The other RAMC officer up the line that day was a Capt. Clark. I have found a reference to a Capt. Alfred Joseph CLARK MC RAMC under WO339/10859. Can anyone with access to lists tell me if this Capt. Clark served with the 76th FA in October 1916?

Also what is likely to be found under a WO339 record for officers? If it's his service records, medal card etc then fine but if correspondance might be included I might have a look. Some advice would be welcomed.

In the meantime I continue to read what I can about the attack on Stuff Redoubt on the 9th October 1916. Each little clue is important.

Thanks again to everyone for helping me in this quest. cheers.

[Alan Graham]

Up date and a gentle 'bump' for some of the questions on my last post.

I haven't managed to get to Kew yet, hopefully soon. Fingers crossed the war diaries I'm looking for are not being copied.

I have a large number of books (Xmas & birthday goodies) that are filling in the story around the battle at Stuff Redoubt. I have gained a good insight to the area with maps provided through another request.

I'm still looking for some advice about the following:

1) For Capt Oliver, or any officer to get his medal would another officer need to see what happened, or is that not the case?

2) The other RAMC officer up the line that day was a Capt. Clark. I have found a reference to a Capt. Alfred Joseph CLARK MC RAMC under WO339/10859. Can anyone with access to lists tell me if this Capt. Clark served with the 76th FA in October 1916? His full name doesn't get mentioned in the diary.

3) What is likely to be found under a WO339 record for officers? If it's his service records, medal card or might correspondance be included?

Many thanks, Alan

[BJanman]

2) The other RAMC officer up the line that day was a Capt. Clark. I have found a reference to a Capt. Alfred Joseph CLARK MC RAMC under WO339/10859. Can anyone with access to lists tell me if this Capt. Clark served with the 76th FA in October 1916? His full name doesn't get mentioned in the diary.

Many thanks, Alan

Hi Alan

It states a Capt A G Clark - who appears to be Capt Arthur Gruchy Clark M.B. He was awarded the Military Cross in the same action. The citation can be found here.

Regards

Barbara

[David_Underdown]

The officers' files that survive are actually correspondence files, so their contents can be quite variable

[Alan Graham]

Hi and Season's greetings!

Barbara: I'm well aware of your note on your website about contact so many thanks for that information. If I had managed to read all the books I had received over the past 2 weeks I would have spotted that in Kincaid-Smith's book 'The 25th Division' Capt A G Clark is listed for the MC under the first batch of medal listings. Your link shows the London Gazette dated 20th Oct 1916, just 11 days after Captain Oliver won his MC and my G Grandfather won his MM. I have read back, slowly, in the 76th FA War Diary and have found the following entries:

Orville 25.9.1916 9pm: Orders received that Capt Clark & Capt. Rev. T.W. Hart had been given the Military Cross.

Orville 26.9.1916 9am: Captain Clark detailed for duty with 8^th South Lanc.s M.O. sick.

I'm trying to find the entry where the award may have been nominated but it appears he worked at Stuff Redoubt as a MC winner already. Hard to read all of my copy so no luck so far. I do wonder if Oliver had been with Clark when he won his MC and vice versa...

Once you are up and running again with your database/website I'd love to help fill in some of the blanks for you, esp. with the 76th FA. that is, if you feel my copy of the War Diary might be a useful source of names etc.

David: Thank you for that useful tip, it's encouraging to hear that. I haven't found the right Clark yet or Oliver amongst the list, bit like a needle in a haystack! I'm hoping their papers may detail more about their medals and those helping them, i.e my MM winner. A long shot but one can only hope....

[BJanman]

Once you are up and running again with your database/website I'd love to help fill in some of the blanks for you, esp. with the 76th FA. that is, if you feel my copy of the War Diary might be a useful source of names etc.

Thanks for your offer of help Alan, that would be great.

Just to warn that I might not be able to get everything onto the database straight away as I still have many headstone photographs and other bits and pieces to add. However, anything you do send me will be logged under your name and the research will be credited to you.

All the best

Barbara

[Alan Graham]

I’m going to visit Stuff Redoubt and surroundings this Thursday/Friday, with my daughter, thanks to the cheap ferries on offer by the Daily Mail. Staying at the Ibis in Albert.

It will be great to see the actual location my Great Grandfather won his MM. I have twice been within a mile of it without ever knowing! Weather permitting (Friday should be sunny) I’ll get to walk in his footsteps.

We hope to visit villages/towns where the 76^th FA was stationed, such as, Bouzincourt, Lealvilliers, Orville, Aveluy.

Can anyone tell me where in Bouzincourt and Aveluy the Field Ambulances would have been station? I know the day after the attack on Stuff Redoubt their base in Aveluy came under bombardment and they moved back to Bouzincourt. Gave the guys further to trek but got the wounded in a safer place.

If you’re about and see a very big guy with a nice looking young lady say hi, it might be me...