auchonvillerssomme Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 I have had a couple of interesting conversations about dated Hudson whistles, the first was someone telling me that a dated Hudson whistle was military only if it had a broad arrow mark, personally I think this is rubbish but hey ho. The other and more worrying was about the marks on the ring being faked and the only genuine marks are those on the body, does anyone have any thoughts about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 Point 1: I also think this is rubbish, though I can see an element of logic behind it. I don't know how whistles were procured for officers and other ranks, but I've seen them in Sam Browne straps obviously original to them and without the arrow. Personally I think they sometimes just missed being stamped, for whatever reason, as often happened with other kit. Point 2: I suppose there might just possibly be someone putting fake arrows on the rings to "improve" a perfectly good whistle, but the idea that all marks on rings are fake is plain nonsense. There are any number of original examples about. I have a 1915 dated "cavalry" model (the one with the attached finger ring) here in front of me and anybody can see that the arrow on the ring has been there as long as the naming on the body. So I won't be losing any sleep over either of those rumours. Cheers, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 1/ I`ve seen enough non-arrow whistles with credible provenance to believe that there may have been as many whistles without as with arrows in the WW1 services. I like mine with arrows though! 2/ Attempts to falsify are usually fairly transparent and, like with medal naming, they tend to be fairly obvious once you`ve seen a few kosher ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 Quick question about 'broad arrows' on whistles etc, does the BA represent British Government property or does it represent British Military Property. I was sure that non military departments eg., Prisons used the BA device as well. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 I've seen quite a few military Hudson whistles with a date but no broad-arrow mark, (especially from 1916), which from their context/provenance are absolutely "right". I've also seen some broad-arrow marks on several whistles (on the barrel) that I suspect may have been added recently. But broad-arrows on the ring are fine as far as I am concerned. Isn't it odd/alarming to see the prices that WW1 trench-whistles are starting to fetch? They could be found all over the place for a fiver each until a few years ago - but suddenly they are fetching £40-£80, and petty-criminal-scumbags appear to be busy in their garden-sheds "enhancing" whistles (and medals - but that is another thread....) William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 September , 2011 Share Posted 5 September , 2011 Quick question about 'broad arrows' on whistles etc, does the BA represent British Government property or does it represent British Military Property. I was sure that non military departments eg., Prisons used the BA device as well. khaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow "Use for British Government property War Department Ordnance Survey Marker, Bermuda. The Office of Ordnance was created by Henry VIII in 1544.[3] It dates back to the position of Master of Ordnance, one of whom, Nicholas Merbury, was present at the Battle of Agincourt.[4] The Office became the Board of Ordnance in 1597, its principal duties being to supply guns, ammunition, stores and equipment to the King's Navy. The headquarters and main arsenal of the Office were in the White Tower of the Tower of London. The broad arrow mark has been used over the years by the Office and Board to signify at first objects purchased from the monarch's money and later to indicate government property. With the demise of the Board in 1855, the War Department and today's Ministry of Defence continued to use the mark. The arrow also appears in the Ordnance Survey logo.[5] Early use of the broad arrow can be found on some objects recovered from the Tudor ship Mary Rose, which sank in 1545. Bronze sheaves for rigging blocks, spoked wheels for gun carriages, bowls and wooden tankards were found to bear this mark.[6] The broad arrow frequently appeared on military boxes and equipment such as canteens, bayonets and rifles, as well as the British prison uniform from the 1870s, and even earlier, that of transportees in British penal colonies such as Australia.[7] The broad arrow marks were also used by Commonwealth countries on their ordnance. The origin and earliest use of the broad arrow symbol are unknown. It could be related to the actual arrow, longbows and bowmen being a key part of the English army in the Middle ages. Broad Arrow Tower, built by Henry III of England between 1238 and 1272, in the Tower of London is said to be named after the royal property mark.[8][9] Invention of the mark is frequently attributed to Henry Sydney, 1st Earl of Romney, who served as Master-General of the Ordnance from 1693 to 1702, since the pheon appears in the arms of his family, but it is known to have been in use earlier than this. There is also an unsubstantiated claim that a document dated 1330, issued by Richard de la Pole, the King's Butler, for the purchase of wine, shows that in order to make sure that ownership could be readily established as King's property, he marked each item with an arrow from his own coat of arms.[10] Similarly to hallmarks, it is currently a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to reproduce the broad arrow without authority. Section 4 of the Public Stores Act 1875 makes it illegal to use the "broad arrow" on any goods without permission.[11]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Thank you Andrew for the prompt and authoritative reply. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 6 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Provenance is everything. The whistle issued to me by HM Prison Service is marked N.P. which I believe was actually meant for Nigeria Prisons. I wonder how that would confuse when I die and my possessions find their way on to ebay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Those Broad Arrows got everywhere... Between 1852 - 1857 Charles Newton excavated the eponymous Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (today's Bodrum, Turkey) on behalf of the British Museum, and received the Sultan's permission to remove various decorated and other pieces for despatch to London. The statues and reliefs and some other bits got to London and are in the BM; some blocks were off-loaded at Malta and used to build a dock; and at the site today you can see several column fragments with Broad Arrows carved on them that evidently got left behind! Doubt if the current Turkish government would recognise any UK claim on them though, even though they are clearly marked as UK property... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave hanks Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 The letters N.P. on a Hudson whistle stands for Nickel Plated, AFAIK. B.N.P. is Brass Nickel Plated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 6 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Really? Now thats interesting, is it an unusual marking, do you know why they marked them that way? What does M.P mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Metropolitan Police? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave hanks Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Hudsons did a range of MP, Metropolitan Police, whistles with a range from MP-1 to MP-22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 6 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2011 I still have this lot to sort so will see how many Broad Arrows and where marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Hudsons did a range of MP, Metropolitan Police, whistles with a range from MP-1 to MP-22 The actual whistles though are not marked MP - it's purely a model designation mark. The whistles themselves were marked with "Metropolitan Police" and an issue number: http://www.whistleshop.co.uk/police.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 I still have this lot to sort so will see how many Broad Arrows and where marked. If those are all Hudson's then by e-bay prices you can whistle up a small fortune if you want to - broad arrow or not Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 6 September , 2011 Share Posted 6 September , 2011 I still have this lot to sort so will see how many Broad Arrows and where marked. Some little-known rarities in that lot. I spy a couple of the scarce blackened whistles for Rifle regiments, plus the equally-scarce bosun's whistle for piping men of the RND up flooded trenches. And is the blued one also a one-shot pistol? The real gem, though, is the incredibly rare white whistle, doubling as a baby's dummy for officers at times of extreme stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 6 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September , 2011 Majority are dated Hudson, but also De Courcy (1914, 1916, 1917), ADIE, and even a couple of WW2 C.W.S. A nice RAF rescue snail whistle (not the plastic one which I think is rubbish but others seem to think its important, Wainfleet has it sussed though). And 4 nice bosuns whistles, one of the bosuns whistles has the base sharpened to a decent edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowatt Posted 16 December , 2012 Share Posted 16 December , 2012 auchonvillerssomme I still have this lot to sort so will see how many Broad Arrows and where marked. I 'drooled' when I saw this photograph. I been looking for one in pawn broker shops, antique shops etc. I've bid on a couple on eBay here in Australia but they keep going for AU$120 - AU$150. Too much for me. Mowatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexflyer Posted 16 December , 2012 Share Posted 16 December , 2012 Some little-known rarities in that lot. I spy a couple of the scarce blackened whistles for Rifle regiments, plus the equally-scarce bosun's whistle for piping men of the RND up flooded trenches. And is the blued one also a one-shot pistol? The real gem, though, is the incredibly rare white whistle, doubling as a baby's dummy for officers at times of extreme stress. Sir, I beg to differ. A bosun would be shocked at the thought of having anything called a "whistle." Real men use a CALL (as in bosun's call). Yours, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 16 December , 2012 Share Posted 16 December , 2012 The factory photographed recently at 244, Barr Street, Birmingham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 3 March , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 March , 2013 After some comments about my shoe box full of whistles I have managed to find a perfect little 4 draw cabinet for the bulk of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianExile Posted 5 January , 2014 Share Posted 5 January , 2014 Nice collection! I was in Ypres today, and in the window of the Over the Top bookshop were 3 or 4 Hudson trench whistles, priced at €88 a pop! I'd love to get my hands on one, but don't really want to pay that much (or the ridiculous amounts on e-bay). Does anyone have any ideas where I can pick one up (or maybe has one to spare for a decent price!)? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 5 January , 2014 Share Posted 5 January , 2014 I suggest patience they turn up for considerably less than 88 Euros. The last one I bought 1918 dated with lanyard was £20 sourced at a local antiques fair before Xmas. I'll keep my eye out for you. all the best Mark Nice collection! I was in Ypres today, and in the window of the Over the Top bookshop were 3 or 4 Hudson trench whistles, priced at €88 a pop! I'd love to get my hands on one, but don't really want to pay that much (or the ridiculous amounts on e-bay). Does anyone have any ideas where I can pick one up (or maybe has one to spare for a decent price!)? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 24 February , 2014 Share Posted 24 February , 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ssl2m Link to BBC Radio Birmingham piece on Hudson Whistles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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