Royal Regiment of Artillery Rank

[kidneybean]

Hi All I recently read in a magazine article that a single chevron on left upper arm of an artilleryman indicating aLance Bombadier was an appointment not a Rank. Thereforeh is rank shown on any Mic found would be Gunner.. Could some kind soul explain this to me. Also exactly what a Lance Bombadier would do.

Regards Freeform

[rflory]

One has to be careful with RA rank as it is different today than during the Great War. During the Great War one stripe was a Bombardier and two stripes a corporal. Today one stripe is Lance Bombardier and two stripes is Bombardier; there is no longer a rank of Corporal. During the Great War there was no RA rank or appointment as Lance Bombardier; rather there were Unpaid and Paid Acting Bombardiers.

[FROGSMILE]

Hi All I recently read in a magazine article that a single chevron on left upper arm of an artilleryman indicating aLance Bombadier was an appointment not a Rank. Thereforeh is rank shown on any Mic found would be Gunner.. Could some kind soul explain this to me. Also exactly what a Lance Bombadier would do.

Regards Freeform

The infantry and cavalry had no 'substantive' rank (that is giving seniority and pension rights) for the level of junior non-commissioned officer with one stripe, whereas the technical Corps, RA, RE and AOC, did. This remained the case until 1961 when the Lance Corporal was at last made a rank, rather than an appointment.

Incidentally, a Lance Sergeant was in the same position. His substantive rank was Corporal, but he held the appointment of Sergeant as a qualified aspirant awaiting a vacancy. As these men did receive a pay increment, the COs of infantry battalions had an 'allowance' that they were not to exceed unless they wanted War Office/Department accountants breathing ire down their necks.

Ergo, the Bombardier was only an 'equivalent' to a Lance Corporal in ONE area and that was in wearing one stripe on his arm. The Bombardier held a pension and seniority earning rank that could not be removed except by court martial. The Lance Corporal held an appointment that was the gift of his commanding officer and that could be removed instantly via the same means.

As well as 'Bombardier' (one stripe) the RA actively and formally used 'Acting Bombardier' (also one stripe), whose status was exactly that of a Lance Corporal in the infantry, in that the position was an appointment and not a rank and was granted and taken away at the CO's whim. It was utilised in exactly the same way as Lance Corporal.

In 1920 existing RA Corporals (2 stripes) became Lance Sergeants (3 stripes), Bombardiers were all given 2 stripes, and a new appointment of Lance Bombardier (1 stripe and thus doing away with the previous Acting Bombardier) was introduced, thus bringing arrangements in line with the infantry and line cavalry.

[kidneybean]

Thanks for replies it helps to clarify situation.

Regards Freeform

[kevinrowlinson]

Although I appreciate the difference between appointed and promoted I think there may be some confusion exactly how and when these terms were used. In my grandfathers case Lance Bombadier was being used before 1920, or have I misunderstood.

Examples

Kevin

[David B]

Going back a bit further, my grandfather was APPOINTED Acting bombardier and a year later Promoted Bombardier. 15 months later he was Promoted Corporal.

I would assume that the initial rank was unpaid with a reminder that the rank could be removed on the first indiscretion.

[Joe Sweeney]

Although I appreciate the difference between appointed and promoted I think there may be some confusion exactly how and when these terms were used. In my grandfathers case Lance Bombadier was being used before 1920, or have I misunderstood.

Examples

Kevin

Kevin,

You are correct the use of "Lance Bombardier" was instituted in early 1918-all 1918 WE reflect Lance vice Acting from then on.

I do not have the 1918 AOs so don't have a date.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

Although I appreciate the difference between appointed and promoted I think there may be some confusion exactly how and when these terms were used. In my grandfathers case Lance Bombadier was being used before 1920, or have I misunderstood.

Examples

Kevin

That's a good question Kevin, as I too have seen conflicting information. Nevertheless, there are clear official records stating the formality of the changes. It does seem strange.

[SFayers]

Unless I'm interpreting the entry in my grandfather's service documents incorrectly (which is of course quite possible!), I was under the impression from this that he was twice appointed Acting (paid) Lance Bombardier (see screen-capture below). If that's the case (and I'd be very happy to be corrected if I have misinterpreted the abreviation!), where does this fit into the scheme of things?

Kind regards

Steve

[kevinrowlinson]

Steve,

I think you are just reinforcing my views. It was my intention to show that the term Lance Bombadier was being used during the war, all be it near the end but before 1920. Your post also suggests that there was a pay scale for a L/Bdr as well as a Bdr. Presumably this was the same pay scale as an acting Bdr. Nevertheless this would still give you Gnr, L/Bdr, Bdr and Cpl. as a progression, with L/Bdr and A/Cpl being appointments. One would have to ask why they needed A/L/Bdr. paid or unpaid.

Perhaps someone may have the clear official records stating the formality of the changes.

Kevin

[SFayers]

Thanks Kevin,

Just another example - this time another 5 Siege Battery man, Albert Edward Bellamy:

Again we see appointments to A/Pd/L/Bdr as well as Pd/L/Bdr in the latter part of 1918.

All the best

Steve

[kidneybean]

Thanks for help on this. Incidently I posted a picture in this section of forum on 14th December 2009 showing distant relative in uniform of RA or ASC. It is now believed that he served in the Royal Horse Artillery, since he is wearing 2 stripes on upper right and left arm would this make him a Corporal by promotion and would this be recorded on his MIC, which as yet I have not been able to find. Needless to say his record has not survived and whereabouts of Medals not known. All I have are two Photographs, 1 taken early in war with ASC badge taken in Lewisham,and 1 taken later in Liverpool with RA shoulder flash wearing overseas chevrons, war and victory ribbons and the two sets of stripes. I think post was titled " Help with overseas chevrons and medal Ribbons". Any more help much appreciated.

Regards Freeform

[rflory]

I have The King's Regulations and Orders for the Army updated to 31 December 1917 and it does not show Lance Bombardier as either a rank or appointment so 'Lance Bombardier' must have come in after that date. Wikipedia indicates that the change from Acting Bombardier to Lance Bombardier occurred in February 1918.

Dick Flory

[kevinrowlinson]

Freeform

If the later photo is showing only RA then he was probably either Acting Bombadier or Bombadier. I would suggest following the advice given on The Long Long Trail about obtaining service records for men serving post war. They would probably show his war service as well.

I still think it strange that they used the term A/L/Bdr, which surely is the same as A/A/Bdr.

Kevin

[SFayers]

I still think it strange that they used the term A/L/Bdr, which surely is the same as A/A/Bdr.

My thoughts exactly Kevin! Just to confuse matters, I've also noticed on some service documents for later in 1918 there is still some interchange between L/Bdr and A/Bdr being used - nothing like consistency eh?

cheers

Steve