~ Trench location Required ~

[Wendy Macpherson]

Hello all

Would appreciate some help with locating the whereabouts of 'Flers trench' on the Somme. Would like to see a scan of a trench map if possible.

Francis (Frank) James McLEOD was KIA and last seen by a witness lying in a dugout in Flers trench on the 15th September 1916. Frank is mentioned on the wall of memories at the Caterpillar Valley (New Zealand) Memorial, France.

Wendy

[Wendy Macpherson]

Ok I'm going to hit the hay now, almost midnight in New Zealand, and boy do I need my beauty sleep

Will check in again in the morning.

Wendy

[Bardess]

An NZ link for you Wendy. It is above Drop Alley

[bantamforgot]

Just beat me to it Diane.

Colin.

[Wendy Macpherson]

WoW .....that's marvelous Diane.

I've just printed it out and the quality is really good.

It even mentions that the map was drawn September 1916, the very month Frank was there.

Thank You for taking the time to find it for me, very much appreciated

Wendy

[Piorun]

It's a long trench, Wendy. Do you need more help to pinpoint the location of the dugout? Antony

[Wendy Macpherson]

Yes I was just thinking about that Antony.

With Flers support trench to the right of the main Flers trench I was trying to establish which direction the NZRB may have been heading. I thought that a support trench may have behind the main trench. But I thought that the NZRB may have been heading to the right towards Gueudecourt.

I was thinking of going to the library to get the official history of the NZRB, only just had it here a few weeks ago reading about another location.

I will get the findings from the board of inquiry for you to read.

Wendy

[Wendy Macpherson]

Board of inquiry 29~11~1916

1. Evidence of 24/128 L'Cpl J.R DUNN 2nd Battalion 3rd NZRB.

Rifleman F.J McLEOD was in the same platoon as me on the 15th September 1916 and I remember seeing him jump over the parapet to the attack I have not seen him since he never rejoined the platoon.

On the 17th of September 1916 I was informed by Corporal Ashton that he had seen Rifleman McLEOD lying wounded in a dugout in the Flers trench but had been unable to render him any assistance.

2. Evidence of 24/1268 Lieutenant F.G MASSEY 2nd Battalion 3rd NZRB (son of the New Zealand prime minister at the time)

23/2052 Rifleman F.J McLEOD was with the battalion in the advance 15th September 1916 he was reported by his company as having been wounded September 15th. He is not now with the battalion. Two further reports came concerning him have been received by me.

I am of the opinion he was killed in action.

~ Findings ~

The board are of opinion that 23/2052 Rifleman F.J McLEOD was killed in action September 15th 1916.

[Piorun]

Lieutenant Massey isn't particularly helpful in not identifying the source of the "two other reports". However, givenm that he is of the opinion that McLeod was "KiA" and not "DoW", it is fair to assume that neither report was from a field ambulance and that, therefore, no further detail will emerge on a personal level. What remains, as you have anticipated, is to see whether the official history can shed further light on the location along Flers Trench with a greater degree of precision. Failing that, does the war diary still exist? It should have more such detail than the official history. The next step would be to find the records of battalions adjacent to NZRB. They may shed more light. Sorry I can't be of more specific assistance. Good hunting. Antony

[Wendy Macpherson]

I've found a huge amount of information in the History of the NZRB, the book is online to read at the New Zealand Electronic Text Center, which is organised by Victoria University in New Zealand. http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH1-NZRi-t1-body-d6-d2-d2.html

Section 2.—The Advance Beyond Flers, September 15th.

Second Brigade to Switch Trench—4th Battalion to Brown Line —3rd and 2nd Battalions to Flers Trench and Flers Support— Flers taken—1st Battalion to Grove Alley—Consolidation—2nd Wellington reinforce—Relief—Non-combatants—General progress —Results.

On the right, the 2nd Battalion companies experienced little difficulty in dealing with their section of Flers Trench; but they came under heavy machine-gun fire from Flers Support as they moved forward from the former. The New Zealand divisional front was between Drop Alley on the left advanced by the 3rd Battalion, and to the right the town of Flers advanced by Franks 2nd Battalion.

[Wendy Macpherson]

Ok read the section and the long and the short if it all is that Frank was found in Flers trench on the right (Pink Squares).

So realistically he could be any where along a 500 yard length of Flers trench, pretty close to the town of Flers.

Apparently there was a German machine gun on the north/west corner of Flers that was causing a fair amount of grief and also a darn good German sniper.

By 7.50am the 4th Battalion had gained Crest trench and Switch trench further south, then the 2nd and 3rd Battalions came forward and moved through to Flers trench and by mid day were taking Flers Support trench. The last objective for the 2nd and 3rd Battalion was to take Abbey Road and Grove Alley.

Wendy

[Piorun]

Can you find out which Company Dunn was in? Can you identify "Corporal ????"? That will give you which company McLeod was in (absent any other evidence). Often, in battalion histories or war diaries, it will note where each company was located.

Barring any evidence to the contrary, I believe that standard practice was A to D, left to right. However, one company was usually held back and "normal procedure" was subject to the conditions of the day.

Been up working since 0430. Off to bed again for a nap. Old age . . . . . Cheers, Antony

[Wendy Macpherson]

Hi Antony

Rifleman Francis James McLEOD

A Company

No 4 Platoon

2nd Battalion

3rd NZRB

DUNN was in the same Platoon as Francis (Frank)

I doubled checked and the 3rd Battalion was definitely on the left and the 2nd Battalion (Frank) on the right.

I'm pretty happy to have narrowed it down this far, the information is for my sister in law, she will be very pleased to have found Frank at all. Her family have never known any details at all other than Frank died on the Somme! So to get this far is good enough I think. I have has his file digitalised and gathered lots of information about his training in Nz and troopship travels, just putting it together in a folder now :^)

Thanks for your encouragement and help...... Wendy

[jacksdad]

Hi Wendy

edited: I reckon that your pink squares go to far to the right. you have them going all the way across to Flers Road, in theory the right divisional boundary was roughly the T intersection of "Fat" and "Flers" trenches. although who knows what happened in the heat of battle. so that being the case some of your blue squares should become pink to even out the front?

His Military record is a very good one in that the court of enquiry almost pin points where he was and what he was doing at the time of death. It is a very lucky find for the family.

I typed up the following a while ago:

At 7.05am the next stage of the New Zealand Division (2^nd & 3^rd Rifle Brigade) came up in high spirits singing and passed over the men now in Switch trench and took over the next advance down into the valley towards Flers and advancing behind a creeping barrage onto the next line of German trenches running across the front of Flers and out towards the left. As they did so they came under German shells, but captured this line of trenches by 7.50am, named Flag & Fat Trench.

"medical officers could be seen working without respite among the never ending groups of wounded who were being brought up by stretcher on the track to Flers… the Aid post and the inert wounded… were being showered with earth and clods, so that I feared to see a shell land full among the stretchers and doctors"Alexander aitkens pg 136 Cptn Bogle was later killed here.

The Rifle Brigade in Flag and along Fat Trench were held up as the artillery had not managed to cut the barbed wire running in front of the left of Flers Trench and the New Zealander went over the top at 8.20am into withering fire from the Germans here, by 9.30am those still alive had gone to ground and waited for help on the left hand side of the attack. Help came at 10.30am with two slow moving tanks, one made short work of a machine gun nest and the other mowed over the wires and sitting astride the German trench, used its side mounted machine guns and proceeded to shoot up and down the trench, quickly scattering the 5^th Bavarian regiment defenders in panic . 10 New Zealanders then swept into the trench, this small gallant group lead by Major Pow (NZRB), captured 100 German prisoners. On the right hand side of the attack the New Zealanders had easier going and also captured 80 prisoners in this part of Flers Trench.

Lt Charles Butcher, sent a runner ( rifleman Joseph Dobson) with a frantically scrawled message for help to the Tank, Dobson then hammering the side of the tank gained entry and guided them over to dispatch a machine gun nest. In doing so NZ entered history as this was the first battlefield communication to a tank. Note is now held in tank museum England.

The Bavarian Regiment historian recorded the men were "quite powerless against these monsters which crawled along the top of trench enfilading it with continuous machine gun fire" The Army Quarterly vol XXVI No.2 pg 304

Further reinforcements now created momentum and under heavy fighting, the New Zealanders pushed on to Abbey Road and capturing the western side of Flers Village. A mushroom shaped water tower stands on this trench system now that the New Zealanders occupied. More and more of the New Zealanders gathered in this captured trench and reorganised themselves all the time being showered with clods of earth as German shells burst around them, in preparation for the final objective of the day; the push into Grove Alley Trench system.

Roger

[jacksdad]

Just reading the file it looks like:

On the 17th of September 1916 I was informed by Corporal Ashton that he had seen Rifleman McLEOD lying wounded in a dugout in the Flers trench but had been unable to render him any assistance.

[jacksdad]

Hi Wendy

On cenotaph - There is a Corporal Harry Ashton 2nd Battalion, 24/36, New Zealand Rifle Brigade, A company, DOW 22 September 1916 buried at Dernancourt Communal Cemetery Extension, Somme

probably the guy and probably the last man to see him alive.

Roger

[jacksdad]

Best i can do with this a camera not that flash in night shots

Divisional boundaries for Battle of Flers. I note reading contempory histories that the New Zealanders drifted across towards Flers on the second day. they definatley had to drift to the left to capture Drop Trench to rid the Germans on this flank as the division on this side was held up in High Wood.

[Wendy Macpherson]

Good god Rodger, your bit of a NZRB star. I'm blown away with all the information you've found... WoW

Yeah... I ran the pink dots further to the right because of the mention that the 3rd Bn moved into the Western side of Flers, but now with your images I can see they only just brushed the town, I would have thought they may have ventured further.

I just found a photo on a WW1 site and Flers was flattened.

Your right it definitely looks like Corporal ASHTON, I'm sure that's him after reading the cenotaph file, that's a great find thanks

The photos of the trench and forward drive to a point are exactly as they say in the history of the NZRB, I was just reading the chapter on Flers. Are those two images from the official history of the NZRB?? I been reading it on-line at the NZETC.

Thanks for spending so much time on researching this for me, I'm absolutely thrilled.

Wendy

Flers

[jacksdad]

Hey Wendy

The kiwis did eventually take over the village as the division on the right of them did not make as much ground, so the Kiwis moved over secured the village and set up a more secure defence on this right flank for the night of the 16th - 17th, they were added by one of the tanks which took up a position by box & Cox trench at the top of the village.

The divisional boundaries map is from the book 'Gallipoli to the Somme' by A Aitken. a must read if you want to get a first hand account of the battle of Flers. the public library should have a copy or be able to get one in, another recent book is 'On my way to the Somme' by A MacDonald.

there is a very good photo around of the New Zealanders standing in a trench at Flers, Switch trench if memory serves me correct, this would have been the trench frank jumped out of to make the attack on Flers trench.

i will see if i have it on file.

roger

found it: the New Zealanders in Switch trench

[Wendy Macpherson]

Roger you wont believe it but I just brought Andy's book the other day, found a copy on TradeMe. He got in touch with me regarding the 19th's that I'm researching and I managed to get him the original sheet music for the 19th Reinforcement Trentham march. Was then that I realised who he was.

Haven't even had time to flick through the book yet, or tho I was going to put it beside the bed and then decided I didn't want to read 'war' then go to sleep, much prefer a historical romance ...... lol

Thanks for the photo, great stuff

Wendy

[Piorun]

Roger Shephard - WELL DONE THAT MAN!! Antony

[jacksdad]

If your doing a write up for the family these maybe of use.

Lougueval- Guillemont Road

Tanks at Flers - one of the tanks HMS Die-hard (i think) lay in the fields for many years after the war on the out skirts of the village much to the joy of many local children.

-- Philip Gibbs a writer for the Daily Chronicle wrote on the 22 Sept for the london paper that the New zealanders were "clean-cut, handsome fellows (whose) gallant charge at dawn will long be remembered. They crossed 'No Man's land', went over the German trenches and out into the blue in pursuit of the retreating enemy"

-- On the Caterpillar Memorial to the missing is Michael Palin's (monty pyhons) Uncle (maybe great uncle) Henry Palin.

-- i wonder if Frank was buried in the dugout at Flers trench - the closest cemetery to him would have been McCormacks or flers road cemetery both of which are no longer there, moved to caterpillar cemetery.

[jacksdad]

If Frank's body was moved to one of these nearby cemeteries here is the locations.

I don't know if this will work but here is a link to a map of the area after the war showing the two mentioned cemeteries

Flickr Image

gotta go to bed the wife has just come out and given me 'the look'

Roger

[Piorun]

You lucky man . Antony

[Wendy Macpherson]

gotta go to bed the wife has just come out and given me 'the look'

Roger

Love it !!

Michelle, my sister in law said to me that Frank was only known to god! and had no grave.

Ive looked in Grant Tobin's 'We will remember the' New Zealand casualties of the Great War, Volume 2 - France & Switzerland. And Frank is mentioned on the wall at Caterpillar Valley (New Zealand) memorial, so rather think he may be still on the Somme, or in a dug-out grave like you first mentioned. There certainly no headstone for him, do you think the men on the memorial wall are in mass graves or did they sink into the mud.

That flicker image of the war dead on the trench map is amazing, I've never seen that before, you can definitely see the 'dangerous' spots

Wendy