Mondo101 Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 Hi all I'm looking to find out as much info as I can regarding my Grand uncle,I have gotten a lot of details from CWGC http://www.cwgc.org/ & his medal card from The National Archive http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ . But I would love to know when he enlisted which action he lost his life in and any info on which company he served in. Private Patrick Bridgeman,5519, 2nd Bn., Royal Munster Fusiliers. He was Killed in action on the 15th July 1915 aged 24 & is buried in Browns Road Military Cemetery, Festubert,France. I would appreciate any advice on how to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 Mondo When was his "Date of entry therein" on his Medal Card, if it was around 14/08/1914, it would suggest he was either a serving Regular soldier or a mobilised Reservist (ex regular). Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 His Medal Index Card shows that Patrick entered France on 28th November 1914 and is ths entitled to the 1914-15 Star (The 1914 Star, clasp and "rose" was only awarded for those already in Theatre before 22nd November) as well as the British War and Victory medals. It notes Killed in Action. (Your links are time expired, security measures, I'm afraid) CWGC info:- Name: BRIDGEMAN. Initials: P. Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 24. Date of Death: 15/07/1915. Service No: 5519 Additional information: Son of Patrick Bridgeman and of Mary Halpin (his wife), of 4, Duggan's Lane, Parnell St., Limerick. Grave/Memorial Reference: VIII. D. 2. Cemetery: BROWN'S ROAD MILITARY CEMETERY, FESTUBERT Soldiers Died in the Great War shows:- Name: Patrick Bridgeman. Birth Place: St. Michael's, Limerick. Residence: Limerick Death Date: 15 Jul 1915. Death Location: France & Flanders. Enlistment Location: Limerick Rank: Private. Regiment: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Battalion: 2nd Battalion. Number: 5519 Type of Casualty: Killed in action. Theatre of War: Western European Theatre. At first glance it doesn't seem that his records are available. Perhaps worth seeing if you can obtain the 2nd Battn War Diary for this period, or maybe a regimental Museum. Also local papers may have archives. He was one of "only" 4 killed that day, 2 others are in adjacent graves, the one unknown is commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial 001 BRIDGEMAN P 5519 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS 002 COLE J 3888 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS 003 CRONIN D 10159 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS 004 GRADY P 7228 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 He was born in Ballyhahill, Glin. Three of his brothers were also in the Army, one of them with the New Zealanders and two of his sisters were nurses with the Red Cross. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 Hi Mondo. Looking at Patrick's number and date of entry I'd lean towards him being a reinforcement from one of the Special Reserve Bns of the Munsters; either 3rd, 4th or 5th. The actual medal roll at Kew can be a good way to find out somebody's 'real' number as sometimes only the 4 digit number gets recorded on the MIC. As an example with my uncle Joe - cwgc, sdgw, mic, imr etc Every bit of paper work I ever saw said his number was 5347 but the medal roll showed him to be 5/5347. That's how I found out he was an SR. 5th Irish Rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 From http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/10/royal-munster-fusiliers-1st-2nd.html With the call to arms, the Munsters started forming new battalions. The 6th and 7th were formed in August 1914, followed by the 8th and 9th the following month. Two garrison battalions would also be formed in April and November 1917. All of these new battalions were allocated numbers from a new number series which started from 1 in August 1914. This series appears to have been reserved solely for men joining these battalions for war-time service only. The number series detailed above, that was originally the preserve of career soldiers joining the 1st and 2nd Battalions, continued to be maintained for men who wished to join up during war-time under regular terms of enlistment. Thus, for example, you have number 10596 being issued to a regular enlistment in March 1915 whilst men joining the New Army battalions at this time were being issued numbers in the 4000s. He has to be one of the new battalions, otherwise if it was a regular number he would have had to have enlisted in 1898! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 Update, it appears from SDGW that he was in 2nd Battalion Patrick BRIDGEMAN Rank: PRIVATE Initials: P Birthplace: St. Michael's, Limerick Residence: Limerick Enlisted: Limerick Regiment, Corps etc.: Royal Munster Fusiliers Battalion etc.: 2nd Battalion. 4.8.14 Malplaquet Barracks, Aldershot: 1st (Guards) Bde. 1st Div. 14.8.14 landed at Havre. 14.9.14 to Army Troops. 9.11.14 to 3rd Bde. 1st Div. 30.5.16 absorbed 7 officers and 140 men from the disbanded 9th Bn. Number: 5519 Date died: 15 July 1915 How died: Killed in action Theatre of war: France & Flanders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 And Armed Forces BMD details indicates 5th Battalion Registration event: Death Name: BRIDGEMAN, Patrick Unit: Royal Munster Fusiliers Rank: Private Number: S/5519 Year: 1915 Volume: I.77 Page: 402 Record source: GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1914 to1921) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 corisande, the OP already had him as 2nd Battalion, as also in Post #3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 And Armed Forces BMD details indicates 5th Battalion Don't be angry. That's a good thing. That might just prove that Patrick was a Special Reservist in the 5th Munster Fusiliers. As you point out about his number, he'd have to have enlisted way too early for his age to be the regular 5519. I don't think either that any "New" Bn men would have went to France as early as November / December 1914. That leaves the SR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 And this him living with his mother and siblings in Duggans Lane, Limerick in 1911 census Click for census And family in 1901 census, but he is not there click for 1901 census He appears to be in the Industrial School in Roxboro Rd, Limerick, but I cannot be sure that is him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 You can get the War Diary of the 2nd Munsters. It will give you a day by day account of what the battalion were doing (but probably not mention you man by name). It will enable you to see what he was doing each day up to his death. It does not seem to be available online - perhaps someone would like to check that for me? In which case you would have to get it from the National Archives at Kew (various ways, go there and get it frree, get an online quote, get someone to go there for you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 The 2nd Munsters had a particularly grim time over the Spring and Summer of 1915 -from Wikipedia Aubers Ridge The 2RMF next role was participating in the Franco-British Second Battle of Ypres, in the area of the March Battle of Neuve Chapelle. The day before the attack of 9 May 1915 the battalion received Absolution from their chaplain (depicted in the famous "Rue du Bois" Matania painting). The British bombardment began at 5 a.m., the Munsters then pressing forward with extraordinary bravery, German fire sweeping No-Mans-Land, some Munsters audaciously charging ahead through the German lines , briefly waving a green flag on its breastwork, then moving beyond until cut off by the British artillery bombardment that followed, which killed many sheltering in shell craters. By 11 a.m. the 2RMF was withdrawn with only 3 officers and 200 men remaining, having lost 19 and 370 respectively. It was one of only two battalions to reach the German lines. But suffered the regiment's highest loss of any one day of the war, 11 officers and 140 men killed in action. It was an unsuccessful day for the British forces overall, casualties exceeding 11,000, the devastating losses exposing the British forces weakness in artillery. Morale was subsequently at a low ebb. Loos salient The summer was relatively quiet after the battalion moved in June to the Loos sector. Various tours and shell attacks brought some casualties in July and August. Other battalions were being withdrawn to reinforce the Gallipoli campaign, no reinforcements or recruits arriving, keeping the battalion weak as the Loos offensive began on 25 September 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 'The History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers' records nothing of significance for that period, though 'The 2nd Munsters in France' by Jervis talks of ...."The bombing raids of the Battalion drew congratulations from the divisional commander. This trench work, however, was not carried out without loss, the week ending July 19th, for instance, cost the Munsters 43 in killed and wounded" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 20 April , 2011 Share Posted 20 April , 2011 It is a reflection on the carnage of WW1 that "The summer was relatively quiet after the battalion moved in June to the Loos sector. Various tours and shell attacks brought some casualties in July and August. " and at the same time "the week ending July 19th, for instance, cost the Munsters 43 in killed and wounded" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 21 April , 2011 Share Posted 21 April , 2011 There are are least three article's ( I have not finished going through them yet)in the Limerick Papers about the Bridgeman's, so its off to read them on the microfiche in the Library in Limerick for you my lad. I notice you have returned to this page at least five times since your first post. If that was me I would have thanked the lads who went out of their way to help long before now, but perhaps their efforts are not appreciated. I am of the old stock, maybe too old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 There are are least three article's ( I have not finished going through them yet)in the Limerick Papers about the Bridgeman's, so its off to read them on the microfiche in the Library in Limerick for you my lad. I notice you have returned to this page at least five times since your first post. If that was me I would have thanked the lads who went out of their way to help long before now, but perhaps their efforts are not appreciated. I am of the old stock, maybe too old... Hi museumtom thanks for showing an interest and of course I'm grateful to all the guys above who have given their time and expertise into helping me,unfortunatually I can only nip in and out of the forum (Im at work,shhhhh) I will be responding to every one that has helped me but I was going to give it 48 hrs so I can take in all the info and form some questions,of which I have many. Again thanks for helping out. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 Mondo When was his "Date of entry therein" on his Medal Card, if it was around 14/08/1914, it would suggest he was either a serving Regular soldier or a mobilised Reservist (ex regular). Sam Hi Sam I think the consensus below is that Patrick may have been as you suggested,a reservist,more digging I think. Thanks for the help. Rgds Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 His Medal Index Card shows that Patrick entered France on 28th November 1914 and is ths entitled to the 1914-15 Star (The 1914 Star, clasp and "rose" was only awarded for those already in Theatre before 22nd November) as well as the British War and Victory medals. It notes Killed in Action. (Your links are time expired, security measures, I'm afraid) CWGC info:- Name: BRIDGEMAN. Initials: P. Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 24. Date of Death: 15/07/1915. Service No: 5519 Additional information: Son of Patrick Bridgeman and of Mary Halpin (his wife), of 4, Duggan's Lane, Parnell St., Limerick. Grave/Memorial Reference: VIII. D. 2. Cemetery: BROWN'S ROAD MILITARY CEMETERY, FESTUBERT Soldiers Died in the Great War shows:- Name: Patrick Bridgeman. Birth Place: St. Michael's, Limerick. Residence: Limerick Death Date: 15 Jul 1915. Death Location: France & Flanders. Enlistment Location: Limerick Rank: Private. Regiment: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Battalion: 2nd Battalion. Number: 5519 Type of Casualty: Killed in action. Theatre of War: Western European Theatre. At first glance it doesn't seem that his records are available. Perhaps worth seeing if you can obtain the 2nd Battn War Diary for this period, or maybe a regimental Museum. Also local papers may have archives. He was one of "only" 4 killed that day, 2 others are in adjacent graves, the one unknown is commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial 001 BRIDGEMAN P 5519 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS 002 COLE J 3888 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS 003 CRONIN D 10159 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS 004 GRADY P 7228 2ND BN 15/07/1915 ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS Hi Kevin thanks for the above ,the more I learn the more head scratching I'm doing. I had used the census for 1901 as a starting point,but Patricks Father my Great grandfather is not on that doc or the 1911 one,how would the info from the CWGC have the following. "Son of Patrick Bridgeman and of Mary Halpin " would it have come from when he enlisted? The fact that He and four of his comrades died the same day makes you wonder did they die together,could it be linked to Connaughtranger comments #14 "This trench work, however, was not carried out without loss, the week ending July 19th, for instance, cost the Munsters 43 in killed and wounded" Again thanks for taking the time to help out. Rgds Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 Hi Mondo. Looking at Patrick's number and date of entry I'd lean towards him being a reinforcement from one of the Special Reserve Bns of the Munsters; either 3rd, 4th or 5th. The actual medal roll at Kew can be a good way to find out somebody's 'real' number as sometimes only the 4 digit number gets recorded on the MIC. As an example with my uncle Joe - cwgc, sdgw, mic, imr etc Every bit of paper work I ever saw said his number was 5347 but the medal roll showed him to be 5/5347. That's how I found out he was an SR. 5th Irish Rifles. Thanks Ulsterlad I'm planing on going to London for a family get together next Jan hopefully I can slip away to Kew, Corisande's reply # 8 shows Patrick's number with an S before it S/5519,could the S stand for special... Rgds Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 From http://armyservicenu...rs-1st-2nd.html With the call to arms, the Munsters started forming new battalions. The 6th and 7th were formed in August 1914, followed by the 8th and 9th the following month. Two garrison battalions would also be formed in April and November 1917. All of these new battalions were allocated numbers from a new number series which started from 1 in August 1914. This series appears to have been reserved solely for men joining these battalions for war-time service only. The number series detailed above, that was originally the preserve of career soldiers joining the 1st and 2nd Battalions, continued to be maintained for men who wished to join up during war-time under regular terms of enlistment. Thus, for example, you have number 10596 being issued to a regular enlistment in March 1915 whilst men joining the New Army battalions at this time were being issued numbers in the 4000s. He has to be one of the new battalions, otherwise if it was a regular number he would have had to have enlisted in 1898! Hi Corisande first off thanks for all the responses,plenty of info to take in,maybe you can help clear up a couple things,some of the abbreviations I'm not familiar with like in your replies #7 SDGW #8 BMD & GRO Thanks Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 And this him living with his mother and siblings in Duggans Lane, Limerick in 1911 census Click for census And family in 1901 census, but he is not there click for 1901 census He appears to be in the Industrial School in Roxboro Rd, Limerick, but I cannot be sure that is him Hi Corisande I never knew there was an Industrial school on the Roxborough rd Limerick can you advise the link? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 21 April , 2011 Share Posted 21 April , 2011 The Additional Information section on the CWGC comes from the Family Verification Form that was sent out to the address of each casualty. It also asked for any inscription or symbol on the headstone. Therefore the information is from some time after WW1 ended, say early 1920's I don't understand the form of words that were used Son of Patrick Bridgeman and of Mary Halpin (his wife), of 4, Duggan's Lane, Parnell St., Limerick. It's not the usual way of denoting that Halpin was her maiden name, and almost saying they are NOT man and wife. It could be that she had been the widow of a well known Mr Halpin, though.... As to whether the 4 were all killed in one incident, I don't know. By that time daily losses seem to have been basically unremarked, so perhaps even 4 in a shell hit might not be thought worthy of an entry in the War Diary. They are at least buried together, so it looks as if they all arrived at the cemetery in a group. There's some comfort that they remain comrades in arms even now. If you really think it justified, you could always contact the CWGC to see if they have any previous burial location information. I'm afraid you've found one of the reasons why this Forum is so addictive - the more you learn, the more questions there are and the more you want to know and pass that knowledge on. That ensures that their memory is not forgotten. Hope it's been of help, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo101 Posted 21 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2011 The Additional Information section on the CWGC comes from the Family Verification Form that was sent out to the address of each casualty. It also asked for any inscription or symbol on the headstone. Therefore the information is from some time after WW1 ended, say early 1920's I don't understand the form of words that were used It's not the usual way of denoting that Halpin was her maiden name, and almost saying they are NOT man and wife. It could be that she had been the widow of a well known Mr Halpin, though.... As to whether the 4 were all killed in one incident, I don't know. By that time daily losses seem to have been basically unremarked, so perhaps even 4 in a shell hit might not be thought worthy of an entry in the War Diary. They are at least buried together, so it looks as if they all arrived at the cemetery in a group. There's some comfort that they remain comrades in arms even now. If you really think it justified, you could always contact the CWGC to see if they have any previous burial location information. I'm afraid you've found one of the reasons why this Forum is so addictive - the more you learn, the more questions there are and the more you want to know and pass that knowledge on. That ensures that their memory is not forgotten. Hope it's been of help, though Thanks Kevin confusing to say the least,She is Halpin on the CWGC form and Bridgeman on the Irish census...... to keep the memory alive is the main reason I'm researching Patrick. Thanks again Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 could the S stand for special... Rgds Ray Hi Ray, Sorry but I just don't know. TBH, my initial thought was that it was an error in the original document and the "S" was meant to be a "5" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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