SFayers Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 Hi folks, I'm currently reading London Gunners - The story of the H.A.C. Siege Battery in action by W R Kingham, 1919. There are a couple of instances in the text where the author refers to the battery (309 Siege Battery, H.A.C. - a 6" howitzer battery) firing gas shells. I was always under the impression that with regard to chemical warfare the British (and by that I mean specifically the RE Special Brigade) dispenced gas from cylinders, or later in the war by Livens projectors and, of course Stokes Mortars. So did the Royal Artillery ever deliver gas? If so it's a new one on me! All the best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 Yes, it did. The option wasn't available until later in the war but came to form an integral part of British counter-battery programmes in particular. Given that gas was an area affect weapon, it was considered better suited to suppressing German artillery. The weather conditions had to be appropriate though. Some of the weather in the Ypres area made it very difficult, with wind and heavy rain on some occasions negating the effect, during late 1917. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 Gas was used very effectively in the first day of the 1st Battle of the Scarpe, April 9th 1917. It was one of the chosen weapons of counter battery fire as it could effectively put out of action a complete enemy battery for a reasonable length of time when mixed with HE rounds. That day was probably one of the most successful counter battery actions of the war - attacking troops receiving very little in the way of atrillery fire during their advance; this being commented upon again and again in diaries. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 The unexploded shells one sees are usually thought to be HE. Did gas shells have a similar dud rate, did the body disintegrate like an HE body (or stay intact like a Shrapnel shell)and did they have the same fuze as HE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 Given the fact that a very large number of dud gas shells are stored (or were the last I heard) by the Belgian and French authorities who are unsure what to do with them there probably were lots of duds. Someone may know more about the present state of affairs. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 They`re usually described as going off with a popping sound which suggests that they didn`t explode. This suggests that the body would stay fairly intact (a la shrapnel shell) but the fuze would be of the impact type like HE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 5 February , 2011 Share Posted 5 February , 2011 Last year I attended a presentation on a Belgian farm which dealt with the 'iron harvest'. It was said that gas shells were frequently found and that for some time they were encased, by the authorities, in concrete and dumped at sea. In more recent times they are collected and emptied at a specially designed installation. The various substances are indentified and incinerated. When unexploded shells are found and liquid movement can be heard or felt they are treated very carefully. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFayers Posted 5 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 February , 2011 Robert and Jim, Thanks very much for the information - I was completely unaware of the British use of gas outside the RE Special Brigade. As they say, you learn something new everyday! All the best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 6 February , 2011 Share Posted 6 February , 2011 UK chemical shell production started in 1916 (4.7, 60-pr, 4.5 H). 6-in H appeared the following year. In 1918 there were chemical shells for all guns 18-pr to 9.2 H. Total production in the war was just under 7 million shells. Based on residual stocks in 1939, I'd say all chemical shells were of the bursting type (like white phosphorus), a small HE charge to break the shell open and throw the liquid about, most chemical shells were cast iron not steel, which meant they didn't need a big bursting charge, though some HE shells were used (but not filled HE), again indicating they were bursting and not nose or base ejection. AFAIK base ejection designs weren't produced until WW2 for 25-pr. As I understand it (I haven't studied all the Ammo HBs), chemical shells were fuzed for direct action (ie impact not airburst), again indicating a bursting design. All that said, officially there were two patterns of chemical shell, 'double diaphragm' and 'container type', but without an ammo HB it's a guess as to what these meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 6 February , 2011 Share Posted 6 February , 2011 So did the Royal Artillery ever deliver gas? Steve A quick look at Farndales History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery Western Front 1914 - 1918 shows a number of references for Shells, Gas. The first mention is in the planning of the Somme bombardment. Indeed the official history out lines "shelling of communications every night (but lacrymatory shell was not to be used until midnight on Y/Z day)". Information on this type of shell can be found on this post Lacrymatory Shell - What is it ?. The next mention is The Battle of Thiepvaal Ridge in September 1916 where it is outlined that the firing of gas shells by 4 inch mortars was a new tactic in the war. In the Battle of Messines 1917, part of the ammunition preparation included 120,000 rounds of gas shell. for the 18 pounders. During the battle, gas shelling by 4.5" howitzers supported the IV Corps front. The plans by General Uniacke (MGRA Fifth Army) for the initial phase of 3rd Yrpes specified "Enemy batteries which could provide defensive fire were to be bombarded with gas from Zero Day minus One to Zero Day. At Cambrai, the operational order stated that, at H hour , all 60 pounders were to open on the German guns with gas shell, then switch to known reserve areas. Preparations for the Battle of Amiens, August 1918, saw 50,000 rounds of 6 inch gas shell being dumped. Counter Battery fire was given top priority by the Gunners, and gas was used freely. In the plan for the attack on the Hindenberg Line, September 1918, the guns of the Fourth Army would from 2200 hours 26th September to 0600 hours 27th September fire a barrage of mustard gas onto all known trenches and gun positions along the whole front. 32,000 rounds of the new BB gas shell were fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 6 February , 2011 Share Posted 6 February , 2011 This post shows "Mother" the 9.2 inch howitzer at the Imperial War Museum with a chemical shell on it's loading tray. I am assuming chemical = gas ? Mother" at IWM what's the blue-Grey projectile ready for loading ? Shell BL Chemical 9.2" The 18 pounder chemical shell is the Grey one third along RA Museum - Firepower 18 pounder ammunition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFayers Posted 6 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2011 Hi Nigel and Ian, Thankyou very much for the extra information. The Battle of Amiens reference is particularly interesting as this ties in nicely with the reference I have in the London Gunners book. All the best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rksimpson Posted 7 February , 2011 Share Posted 7 February , 2011 Hi What sort of gas did they use? Chlorine, Mustard or Phosgene, or all? regards Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 7 February , 2011 Share Posted 7 February , 2011 See another thread under miscellaneous John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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